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Sick Dwarf Gourami
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bugzycat
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Joined: 08 Aug 2003
Location: Michigan~~~USA

PostPosted: 2003.09.07(Sun)19:57    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Type-R, My babies are spot free finally!!!! Yay!!! Will be treating my hospital tank until Thursday or Friday to be completely sure I got all the little buggers!! Plan on doing a 25% water change/vac and put in a new carbon filter. The old one needed to be replaced anyway. Thanks a bunch for your help and advice!!!!! Very Happy I was really getting confused on how to handle the situation. Lastly and final question Embarassed . NOw don't get me wrong, I'm not in any rush or anything, but how long should I wait before adding any tankmates? I heard a month? Does that sound right? I certianly wouldn't want to start something all over again, by adding anything too soon. Whew, hoping with this under my belt that things can move a bit more smoothly. Wink Thanks for all your help. ~Nancy~
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Type-R
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Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Location: East Yorkshire, UK

PostPosted: 2003.09.08(Mon)7:36    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great news Nancy, glad to hear it's finally cleared up. Very Happy
As regards adding tank mates I would wait a couple of weeks to make sure that there is no secondary infection from the Ich. The Ich parasite burrows out of the skin of the fish and leaves a tiny hole so as you can imagine this leaves them open to infection until healed up properly. You should also monitor your water parameters (Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate) because meds often knock out at least some of your bio filtering bacteria and as such these bacteria need to build up before you add more fish.
Also when the time comes remember not to add too many fish at once! 6 small tetras or two platys/mollies every couple of weeks should ensure you don't get a mini-cycle.
Just a thought, when you are re-stocking it is better to have more of one species than a few of many species. For example a shoal of 12 Bloodfins http://www.aquazoo.co.uk/Page.cfm/Type=Fish/ID=197 would interact and be much more interesting to watch then say 4 neons, 4 black neons, 4 barbs, 2 mollies.
Another thing I should mention is that using carbon in your filter is not really good practice for everyday filtering. Carbon should be seen as a 'polishing' tool for your water and as such you would normally add it for 3 days to remove tannins / traces of meds etc and then take it out. A filter with just sponge/bio-media and fine filter floss is really all you need for day to day filtering.
I know I have probably just given you a million new questions but don't worry, if you need any help just ask! Very Happy
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bugzycat
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Joined: 08 Aug 2003
Location: Michigan~~~USA

PostPosted: 2003.09.08(Mon)9:51    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi there! Good advice as usual. Smile I never thought of bloodfins before. hmmmmmm......they look like they would be real pretty. Would they be okay for a 10 gal? My little pleco died this morning Sad . He hadn't seemed right lately, but they are hard to read since they really aren't that active during the day. I imediately checked my Amonia levels and they are Ideal. The two platies seem fine to. (this is in my 10 gal not my main tank) Maybe the meds finally caught up with him?? The spots on him were finally gone to. POor little guy. Main tank(30gal) is doing great!! Added some new decorations for them. They really like it when there is something new to check out. Laughing

About the filters. Now I have a aquatech for my 10 gal and a whisper for my 30 gal. Do they make filter floss for these setups? I would hate to have to get all new filters. The Whisper does have the sponge in it, but the Aquatech is just the carbon filter. Does that make since Question I can also talk to my local fish store guy, but his place is pretty small. I wonder if he would have the filter floss. My friend and I are planning a trip to go to a bigger place Called Advanced Aquariums in a few weeks, maybe that would be a better place to look. This place is amazing!!! I wish I would have gotten all my fish there instead of our walmart ect.... Could have been part of my problem ?

WEll, thanks for your help again. Laughing Let me know what you think would go well with my two platies in the future of course!

Also here is what is in my 30 gal>>>>>


2 male guppies
3 female platies
3 female guppies
1 pleco
2 striped danios

I really want to add two Angel fish to this group. I know they get big, but I would start out with the quarter size Angel and do plan to get another tank around Christmas time if all goes well with my tanks that I have. So I would eventually like to have an Angel tank. A tank they can have to themselves and maybe put in something they would get along well with if anything? Laughing Any advice here?


Thanks so much!!! ~Nancy~
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Type-R
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Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Location: East Yorkshire, UK

PostPosted: 2003.09.08(Mon)11:36    Post subject: Reply with quote

The bloodfins are a lovely fish but unfortunately they would not be happy in a 10 gallon. They really need a tank of 30 inches long or more because they are very active shoaling fish and can grow up to 2 1/4 inches. Shame about your pleco, you say your Ammonia levels were 'ideal', you mean they were 0? What are the Nitrite and Nitrate readings? You must get a nitrite test kit if you haven't got one.
As far as I know there is no alternative for the AquaTech filters, you must use the carbon filter media, however I believe that you can fit a bio wheel to it from one of the Marineland Penguin filters. I have heard that the bio-wheel from a penguin 170 will fit an AquaTech 20-40 filter, you need to order brackets, bearings and the bio-wheel from Marineland (www.marineland.com) to do this.
Does the Whisper have sponge and a bio-bag as well? Can you just buy more sponge and replace the bio-bag? I am not familiar with the Whisper filters so can't exactly advise on how to do this!
Thing is all these carbon gizmos and 'bio-bags' etc are just a waste of money IMO. All they do is the same as your weekly water changes I.e. remove substances from the water that build up. Your water changes take care of this so there is no need for the carbon. All you need is a filter material like sponge that will allow lots of bacteria to grow and trap dirt. Filter floss is usually put in the filter as the last stage before the water flows back into the tank, it just traps very fine particles to polish your water (and gives large surface area for bacteria).
If all of this sounds a bit much, you can just leave in the filters you have and not replace the media.....that's it! Just leave the carbon media in there and it will become saturated with impurities and stop working. It does provide a large surface area for bio bacteria to grow on though so in effect you will convert the chemical filtration (carbon) into a pure bio filter. As long as you keep up your water change routine you should have no problems at all doing this (and save money on new media! Very Happy ). By the way, is the UGF in the 10 or 30 or both tanks?

What I would recommend you do is take the two zebra danios back to your LFS, put the two platies from the 10 gallon into the 30 (after a while to make sure they are disease free) and keep the 10 as a quarantine/hospital/breeding tank instead. It is very useful to have a tank to use as quarantine etc and I really do think this is the best use for this tank. If you wanted to make it more interesting you could always plant it and keep a few inverts like cherry shrimps (removing them before using as a hospital tank of course!).

I wouldn't get any angels until you have a new tank all set up and cycled to be honest. Although you can buy small ones they are growing into big fish and as such eat and poop a lot! This means they create a big bio load and this would be too much for your 30 gallon.
If you decide to go for an angel tank I would recommend a 30x18x18 inches (40 gallon) tank. You could keep a pair of angels, a school of 10 rummy-nose tetras, 6 corydoras and a bristlenose pleco! Well that's one option anyways! I'm not an Angel keeper so if you were going to do this I would ask the others, especially Cyradia as I know she/he? keeps lots of angels. Very Happy
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bugzycat
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Joined: 08 Aug 2003
Location: Michigan~~~USA

PostPosted: 2003.09.09(Tue)20:05    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Type-R, lost another platie in the 10 gal. Crying or Very sad Thought she was acting funny, so I did a water change this morning before work. Came home tonight and she was gone! Shocked I bought more test strips after work tonight that shows everthing. Which I just had amonia ones before. My ten gal had 20 for nitrates(safe), .5-1.0 for nitrites(stress) ,GH 150(hard),
KH 120(ideal). pH 7.8(alkaline). So I know I shouldn't have done this but I moved my last lonely platy up to my main tank Embarassed The readings seem safer up there and I didn't want to lose him to! I've finished treatments on both tanks now and am hoping I made the right decision on moving him up. I can all ready hear people shaking their heads(hasn't she learned yet!), but I fear he was doomed if I kept him in the lower tank? HOw can I correct the balance of this tank now? Big huge water change??? Turn up the heat? PUt in my new carbon filter and let it all get filterer out? Sorry a lot of questions here, but I thought I was doing so good! At least my main tank is doing GREAt! Hopefully I didn't make a mistake by adding my lonely platy?? He's been spot free for many days and still being treated. Also the main tank was treated for 14 days. Any advice here?

Main tanks readings as of tonight. Plan on a 30% water change tomorrow and adding of new carbon filter for at least 3 days!


Nitrate 40(safe) is it supposed to me 0?

Nitrite 0 (safe)

Gh 150 (hard)

KH 120(ideal)

pH 7.8 (alkaline)

After my water change tomorrow the nitrate should be down to 0?


Thanks, Nancy

Also no undergound filter in the 10 gal just the aquatech power filter.
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Type-R
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Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Location: East Yorkshire, UK

PostPosted: 2003.09.10(Wed)7:20    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK Nancy, the problem in your ten gallon is definately the Nitrite level. Fish rarely die from ich directly, if they do die it's usually from stress, or from secondary infection. It is almost certain it is the nitrite level which killed the fish in the ten so you were right to move your platy. If he has been spot free for a few days I doubt it will be a problem in your main tank.
What has happened is this:
In the 10 gallon you have an aquatech filter which combines bio filtration and chemical (carbon) filtration in one module. When you took this out of your filter (to add meds) you effectively removed probably 75% of your bio-filtration. This then meant that your tank went out of balance and the amount of fish waste overwhelmed the remaining bio bacteria - ammonia and nitrite result from this.

Put your new module in the aquatech, add a pinch of food flakes to the tank, set the temperature to 76 F and just leave it to run it's course. As long as there are no fish in there it won't matter, monitor the nitrite for the next week and see if it begins to drop off. (What should happen is that your Nitrite goes down to 0 and your Nitrate will go up.)
All the other readings are fine, it's only the Nitrite that is a problem at the moment.
As for the 30 gallon, like you said put the carbon in the whisper and run it for a week to remove all traces of the meds you added. In the mean time see if you can find any filter sponge and fine filter pads you can use in the whisper instead of the carbon (ask your LFS maybe?).
The reason it was OK (no Nitrites) when you removed the carbon from the whisper is because it has sponge to hold bio bacteria and the tank also has a UGF giving lots of bio-filtration.

With regards to Nitrate levels. These are not going to be 0 in your tanks and there is no need for them to be. A reading of 25 or less is fine for your fish (although a reading of 50 wouldn't kill them instantly it would stress them). In a good stable tank there should never be any Ammonia, never any Nitrite and always some Nitrate.
The reason we do water changes is mainly to remove Nitrate which builds up, how fast this builds up depends on your stocking level and also whether the tank is heavily planted (plants use up nitrates). Carbon filtration does not remove Nitrate!
So on your 30 gallon, do a 40% water change and then after an hour test the nitrate level. If it is 25 or less then that's fine. If it is still above 25 then do a 10% water change every day until it is below 25.
You might think, well its a 30 gallon, if I change 33.3% then I am adding 10 gallons of fresh water so the Nitrate reading of 40 is now going to be about 27. In theory it would be but often tap water contains nitrate (my 'fresh' tap water contains 20ppm Nitrate!) so you might not be removing as much nitrate as you think. If my tank wasn't planted I would never get my Nitrate below 20, in reality it stays about 12 because of the plants using up the nitrate.

So just to re-cap:

1. Add new filter to 10 gallon, adjust temperature, add pinch of food and leave until Nitrite is 0.
2. Add new carbon to 30 gallon for 1 week while finding new filter material for whisper.
3. Do 40% water change today and 10% every day until Nitrate is below 25. *Note: you don't need to vacuum every day just take water out.

Have a go at this nancy and let me know how you get on Smile
I have a feeling you are out of the danger zone now! Very Happy
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bugzycat
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Joined: 08 Aug 2003
Location: Michigan~~~USA

PostPosted: 2003.09.10(Wed)9:13    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow! What would I do without you!! Surprised Thank you so much for explaining all of that to me! You actually made it make since! I did a big water change in my main tank this morning and will check the levels again this afternoon. Smile I was never so happy to hear someone say I did the right thing by moving that platy up!!! Very Happy I worried all night about that. Laughing As my friend told me, this hobby is supposed to be relieving your stress, not adding to it. Laughing But I am certian and determined to get this straight yet! I Don't want to loose anymore fish because of my ignorance. Embarassed I hope you realize how much you have helped me? Wink ANd probably saved some fishy lives too! We are making a trip to Green bay today (Home of the Packers). Maybe I can get my hubby to stop at one of the bigger pet stores to look for those filters? So now once the nitrite levels are gone in the 10 gal it would be okay to add fish? I know I should really keep this as a hospital tank, but I don't think hubby will go much for an empty decorated tank Sad .

OH I have just one more little note. I live out in the country, so my water is well water. I don't have to add the dechlorinaters ects... Which I heard is a good thing? Thanks so much for all your help. You've saved my babies from anymore unneccasary tradgedies!!! Very Happy ~Nancy~
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Type-R
Advisors


Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Location: East Yorkshire, UK

PostPosted: 2003.09.10(Wed)10:17    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nancy,
As I have said I am not familiar with the Whisper filters but I know you can buy the foam cartridge section separately. Does the foam section and bio bag bit fit in the same way? If so you can just buy another foam cartridge and replace the bio bag with it.

For your 10 gallon, in my opinion the best thing for you to do (although you will have to talk hubby around) is to buy an eheim aquaball 2206 internal power filter with a foam cartridge ($18.48 from www.bigalsonline.com) This will last you probably forever and you will never need to buy any new media or anything for it. All you will need to do is remove the foam every week, give it a wash out in old tank water and pop it back in! Job done!
You would run this along side your Aquatech for a week (to allow the new aquaball to get populated with bio bacteria), then remove the Aquatech and keep it in a cupboard as an emergency spare.

As regards adding fish to the 10 gallon, once your Nitrites are 0 check the Nitrate level and do water changes as with the 30 gallon to get Nitrates to 25 or below. Then the tank will be ready for some new fish. Remember start slow with a small tank like this and try to keep 'tidy' fish in it. These are fish like small tetras, Rasboras, dwarf cory's. 'Messy' fish are fish like Mollies, Guppies and Platy's and most Cichlids.

Obviously the choice of fish is a very personal thing but I would recommend adding 4 of any of the following species to start, followed by four more of the same species 2 weeks after.

Beacon fish (Head and tail light tetra)
Black Neon Tetra
Black Phantom Tetra
Flame Tetra
Glowlight Tetra
Lemon Tetra
Neon Tetra
Silver-Tip Tetra

You can see all of these fish here http://www.aquazoo.co.uk/page.cfm/Type=AllFish/Breed=111

Alternatively

Harlequin Rasbora
Red Line Rasborba
http://www.aquazoo.co.uk/page.cfm/Type=AllFish/Breed=98

Or

Dwarf Corydoras
Pgymy Corydoras
Leopard Corydoras
Black-Spotted Corydoras
http://www.aquazoo.co.uk/page.cfm/Type=AllFish/Breed=37

Good luck with it all
I'm glad to be of help Very Happy

Oh yeah and well water often is good news, you can always test some for Nitrate out of interest!
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Artkelli
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Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: 2003.09.10(Wed)11:27    Post subject: alternative fish for 10 gallon Reply with quote

As an alternative for your 10 gallon. You could have a dwarf puffer tank. It could be something a little different from your other tank.
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Jen S
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Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Columbus, Ohio USA

PostPosted: 2003.09.10(Wed)12:31    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't puffers need a brackish setup?
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