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Taratron
Benefactors


Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Location: AZ

PostPosted: 2003.08.12(Tue)1:41    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not the morality police. But I do know that stranger things have happened than a sole hybrid baby surviving to sexual maturity in order to breed.

That would be like me mixing a guppy with my male molly to see what the offspring would look like. If I didn't give them away as feeders, what would I do with potentially hundreds of babies? Ice them? Kill them? Flush them down the toilet?

Anyway, it's safer not to mix species that hybridize easily. There's no real need for more hybrids bred just to see the end result.
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rudy
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Joined: 01 Aug 2003
Location: Calgary, AB

PostPosted: 2003.08.12(Tue)7:50    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
. Kenyi do real well with electric yellows. They are the most non aggressive. Zebras and Auratus are the best combination. They choose sides of the tank and stay content that way. They breed like convicts so be prepared.


What???? Did you see the size of this persons tank? Kenyi get rather large and Kenyi are far from mellow. Zebras and auratus may work, as they are both aggressive mbuna but not in a 29 gallon. You would be left with one dominant male.


Bo, again I agree with you about water changes. All I am saying is to tell someone who is presumably a newbie to forget everthing that will make his tank more than likely work and tell him to just wing it and hope to god his water is going to work is the wrong idea.


Quote:
As for driftwood in an african tank, do I really need to address that? Common sense dictates that wood of any sort will at least gradually drop pH and soften water which I guess was your point.


How is that common sense? If you go buy an african set up at a LFS and have never kept fish before it may seem like a good idea and the salesperson is giving you a deal. How would common sense tell you othewise if you have never kept fish? Shocked If that is the case I must lack common sense.
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Brent O
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Joined: 01 Aug 2003

PostPosted: 2003.08.12(Tue)11:31    Post subject: Species for a 29 gallon Reply with quote

Continuing on with stocking a 29 gallon....I should have been more clear in my initial posting about wanting a tank with a few yellow labs. This has been my first go around with establishing a tank. I started out with a few Cichlids from Wal-mart, not really knowing that species they were. Unfortunately I lost all but one of the cichlids due to not cycling the tank. I've learned a lot since then, partly due to this discussion board. But anyways, I have 1 of the original fish left, which I believe to be a Pseudotropheus socolofi. It lacks the black mark on the dorsal fin, but I've read that this is common due to over-breeding.

So really, I need some suggestions for tank mates with the socolofi. As of now, I'm not planning on wanting to raise fry, so I'm not sure I want to do the trio thing. I was interested in Pseudotropheus saulosi because the males and females have such different colors. What I'd like is to have some variety in color amongst the fish, but at the same time not have to worry about them outgrowing the tank quickly (I'll probably get a larger tank in 2-3 years). Also, something that isn't overly aggressive would be good.

Anyone familiar with Pseudotropheus Elongatus Chilumba or Pseudotropheus sp. Gold Breasted Zebra . I haven't been able to find much information on these fish.

I appreciate everyone's help and really look forward to reading your comments/suggestion.

Thanks again.
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Huntress
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Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Location: Houston TX

PostPosted: 2003.08.12(Tue)12:22    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to pipe in about driftwood. There are several types that do not soften water or alter pH AT ALL. One of the types is the one I use in all my tanks which is Malaysian Driftwood. In the 2-3 years it's been in all my tanks it's done nothing to alter the chemistry. The stuff is expensive (at least where I bought it), but well worth it. I've seen it used in african set ups and it adds a really nice touch.
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bohica
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Joined: 10 Aug 2003
Location: western Ky.

PostPosted: 2003.08.12(Tue)16:48    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rudy, chill out dude. I made no recomendations of any sort. I voiced my own experiances. Read the post again and tell me where I advised anyone to throw out anything.

As to driftwood/common sense, I can only tell you once again to read the post and then read the post I was responding to. It was your own! Are you a newbie?

I suggest you collect your thoughts and be sure you are correct before attacking me. If I am guilty I will take the heat. If I am not then be prepared. Wink

Bo
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Tommy
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Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: San Jose, CA

PostPosted: 2003.08.12(Tue)19:36    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to toss my two cents in here before things escalate...Bohica, I would probably agree with you on a lot of your points IF our general range of readers/posters shared the same level of experience that you and Rudy and others do. However I believe that in general it is far safer to make recommendations that follow the path of duplicating the conditions that our fish originated in, especially when making recommendations to newer fishkeepers.

As for your sumation that Africans today are simply bred and housed in neutral water conditions (whatever is available), this is probably true but I have never seen it proven that this is a good thing. I brought this subject up with a close friend of mine who keeps Africans and has done so for many years, and he agrees that breeders are not taking the time to properly duplicate natural water conditions anymore. His feeling is that he has seen a serious decline in the quality of livestock available in the last few years and attributes it to the lack of care taken in providing proper water parameters. The fact is that the internal organs of these fish adapted to the alkaline water over millions of years and are we so bold to say that we can now force them to evolve to different conditions in 10 years? My friend is convinced that his fish are healthier, longer lived, colored, etc... in water that is as close to their natural water as possible...

So, my point of saying this is just a recommendation for you to keep in mind that you are a very experienced fish keeper who knows by instinct how to make little tweaks and adjustments to bring success to your fish, but our visitors here mostly don't share your level of experience. So please be careful with your recommendations...I personally have not heard of any long term, controlled scientific study that has proven or disproven the ability of hard water fish to adapt to soft water. Maybe you have? I would love to see it.


Now getting back to our subject, I actually disagree with your following quote and I'll tell you why...
Quote:
Crushed coral(our subject ) is a good agent for stabilization but it is by far and away not the best. Do you know what the best stabilizing agent is for any aquarium? Good regular water changes.

The reason I disagree is that you are relying on your own experience and assuming that everyone will have the same results. I (and many other SF water supply people) have water that is Extremely soft, but the pH is artificially raised by the water co. using pothash and comes out at a whopping 9.2 pH. In my case, crushed coral (or other buffering agents) is almost critical to maintaining a stable tank. I have seen cases where if left unbuffered, my water (in a heavily stocked tank) has gone as low as 5.2 pH within a week only to swing back up to 7-8 if a medium/large water change is done. In this case, water changes are most definitely NOT a stabilizing influence.

Anyway, don't take this the wrong way. Your presence (and Rudy's as well) is very welcome here. We need as many experienced people as we can get, especially with Africans. Just please keep your audience in mind and don't assume that everyone can or should take the same shortcuts...
Tommy


Last edited by Tommy on 2003.08.13(Wed)0:02; edited 1 time in total
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rudy
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Joined: 01 Aug 2003
Location: Calgary, AB

PostPosted: 2003.08.12(Tue)19:46    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I suggest you collect your thoughts and be sure you are correct before attacking me


Bo I did not mean it as an attack honestly I was just discussing the issue. If I read that wrong I appologize. I thought you were talking about general common sense. My point as Tommy pointed out is that starting out right and making tweeks along the way is better than starting off wrong and ditching the whole thing all together and not to mention sometimes I can be an opinionated a.. :shock

Oh yeah I still consider myself a newbie. I still got lots to learn. Wink
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bohica
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Joined: 10 Aug 2003
Location: western Ky.

PostPosted: 2003.08.13(Wed)16:17    Post subject: Reply with quote

rudy wrote:
Quote:
I suggest you collect your thoughts and be sure you are correct before attacking me


Bo I did not mean it as an attack honestly I was just discussing the issue. If I read that wrong I appologize. I thought you were talking about general common sense. My point as Tommy pointed out is that starting out right and making tweeks along the way is better than starting off wrong and ditching the whole thing all together and not to mention sometimes I can be an opinionated a.. :shock

Oh yeah I still consider myself a newbie. I still got lots to learn. Wink


Rudy, you and I have no problem. Everything is 5X5 on my end. I look forward to many enlightening discussions with you in the future.

Tommy, You said:

Quote:
I (and many other SF water supply people) have water that is Extremely soft, but the pH is artificially raised by the water co. using pothash and comes out at a whopping 9.2 pH. In my case, crushed coral (or other buffering agents) is almost critical to maintaining a stable tank.


I understand and sympathise. But I did address that earlier in the thread.

Quote:
You also mentioned how water condition vary by area and unfortunately this is very true. So some chemical changes may be needed in extreme cases. But most fish including africans, wiil adapt and thrive in all but the most adverse water types as long as they are introduced to it properly.


But I still stand by water changes as the best stabilizer. (yours is an extreme case, granted.) How often do you change your crushed coral substrate? Did you know that it will lose it's effectiveness over time? Did you also know that most (not all) CC also has additives in powder form added to it? Those additives constitute most of it's buffering ability. In some cases CC can start to lose it's effectiveness in as little as 3 months.

You find yourself adding more and more chemical buffering agents as time goes by. Thats because the CC has started to break down. Agood way to at least extend the buffering power of CC is partial water changes. The water changes (unless it's some kind of fancy purified water) re-introduce basic minerals into a system. Most good aquarists also clean the substrate with a gravel vac at this time which of course removes waste and such which makes the buffering job much easier.

Bo
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Tommy
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Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: San Jose, CA

PostPosted: 2003.08.14(Thu)0:09    Post subject: Reply with quote

I appreciate the info but this isn't about me so I don't want to get all into that. I was merely using my water situation to point out to you that there are serious variances in different water supply situations across the country/world, so again, you may want to consider the diversity of your audience before making "end-all" statements like the one I quoted.

I personally feel like this thread should have ended right at the point where the posters question was answered in the first response by Rudy. He simply asked if he "can" add crushed coral to his tank. Regardless of how long the list of the pros or cons of crushed coral, the answer to the "Can I" question will always end up yes...Although the benefit of doing so is debatable (in your opinion), it is safe to say that no harm will come to his Africans by him adding the coral..
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bohica
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Joined: 10 Aug 2003
Location: western Ky.

PostPosted: 2003.08.14(Thu)3:13    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tommy, fine. Ciao.

Bohica
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