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10g Marine tank ?'s
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helenjc
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Joined: 12 Feb 2003

PostPosted: 2003.05.13(Tue)16:19    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old Salt, I have never really heard the advice in regards to having to keep clowns in pairs. Maybe you can give me a reference or two or tell me more about it. I have sent you a PM. I may be entirely mistaken in my understanding, but I have always thought that clown can be either kept alone or in pairs, with or without an anemone, and they would be fine. I have had my a. ocellaris for about a year now, and so far so good, although a year is not much to brag about in regards to keeping fish alive and thriving. Not trying to start an argument, but I'm definately open to learning more.

If either one of you is still interested in setting up a tank, in the nano size region, check out nanoreefs.com or for a plethora of information on anything from nanos to 1000 gallon systems, check out reefcentral.com. It's really a great site. I have to admit I learned a lot there. Ten is admittedly on the small side for saltwater tanks, FO or reef, but not impossible, like I mentioned. If you can upgrade just a bit, maybe to a 20, it would be better, although still a bit difficult. From my reading, usually a 55 gallon is recommended for a starter. I started with a 20g, and I am doing fine so far. I have a reef with a few fish, a few corals, and some shrimp.

In regards to hermit crabs being added to a cleaning crew, although a popular choice, not all hermit crabs that are offered in the lfs are suitable to be part of your clean up crew. Many are carnivorous and will eat your snails. I learned this a little too late, and there is still ahermit or two in my tank preying on my snails. A few very specific ones my be okay, but I would stay away from them entirely, if I were to do it all over again.

HTH =)
Helen
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PostPosted: 2003.05.13(Tue)17:40    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi I also was thinking of creating a nano reaf, but I read most of this and descided not to. Now I will go larger but proubly 20-30 but have no idea how much it would cost? Can enyone tell me how much a 20-30g salt tank would cast. Oh and also I would like to have 2 Clowns like the other guy, gobby, and maybe a Meridian.

Please forgive me if something is spelled wrong I am in a hurry
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SoS
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Joined: 16 Feb 2003
Location: New Jersey, USA

PostPosted: 2003.05.13(Tue)21:35    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi wrote:
Hi I also was thinking of creating a nano reaf, but I read most of this and descided not to. Now I will go larger but proubly 20-30 but have no idea how much it would cost? Can enyone tell me how much a 20-30g salt tank would cast. Oh and also I would like to have 2 Clowns like the other guy, gobby, and maybe a Meridian.

Please forgive me if something is spelled wrong I am in a hurry


Did you want a reef tank with corals or a fish only tank Question

There's a big price differance.
_________________
Don't buy the fish before you know the fish.
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The Old Salt
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Joined: 01 Apr 2003
Location: Alabama

PostPosted: 2003.05.13(Tue)22:45    Post subject: Reply with quote

Helen, keeping clowns in pairs is not advice, it's common sense.

If you were to cruise along a reef, you'd notice something about the clownfish. You wouldn't see schools of them. You wouldn't see single specimens. You'd see pairs. Pairs, pairs, pairs, and more pairs.
Well, okay, on rare occasion you'd find a single specimen, but it won't stay alone for long if it can help it. Heck, clownfish can even change sex at will just to make sure that any two fish which find each other can be a pair.

Most clownkeepers know that clowns are quarrelsome in groups, unless the tank is so overstocked that fighting is pointless. That's because they live in pairs.

Clownfishes have a highly developed set of social behaviors, being very much like cichlids. Keeping a lone specimen forces it to behave outside it's normal "programming", and that's just cruel. You know how bored and stir crazy a lone oscar gets, right? Well, clowns have the same problems, but they just aren't as noticable due the clownfishes' inability to smash the heater.
---------------------------------
Meridian? Is that Mandarin, perhaps?
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helenjc
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Joined: 12 Feb 2003

PostPosted: 2003.05.14(Wed)11:24    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see your reasoning, in regards to doing what is natural, but we are already doing something quite unatural having them live in a little box of water in our living rooms. I mean even if your tank is 100 gallons, it is still tiny compared to the ocean. I mean, often I read that clownfish can be kept in an aquarium without an anemone, and that they would be fine, but I'm sure in nature, all clowns are found with anemones. I read that tangs should be kept in a tank that is a minimum of 55 gallons, but where do they come up with this number? I doubt that yellow tangs tend to only swim back and forth between four feet of water in the ocean. So in terms of my question, I guess I was asking were is there any conclusive evidence, or even just anectodal experience, that clowns do not do as well in singly as they do in pairs? I guess we can't really judge the mental well being of a fish directly, so we tend to go on things like how active they are, their coloring, their feeding behavior, and the length of their lives. In terms of the tangs, my assumption is that they came up with 55 gallons, after seeing tangs do badly and slowly fading in tanks that are smaller. It was not really based on somehow trying to duplicate was is "natural" but rather by what was practical. It may be tempting to apply human emotions and morals to all other living creatures, but just because it seems like it is "common sense" doesn't really make it true. I mean if a higher life form alien came and decided to keep humans as pets, and they collected me and my family to live in a small box, they may decide the air I breathe should be filled with smog, since that is the natural environment that they found me in (I live in Los Angeles), but they would be mistaken. I would much rather prefer clean air. Maybe that would be taking it a bit far, but you get what I mean.

So finally, my question would be, do clowns that live singly, have shorter life spans, display more unusual behavior, show unusual or unhealthy coloring, become more susceptible to disease, etc. than fish that live in pairs? If a difference does exist, is it to the point that people should keep clownfish in pairs or not at all? According to your previous posts, it seems that that would be your opinion. Maybe our only point of contention is that I think, even if it is a bit more unatural to keep a clownfish singly instead of in a pair, that I would still do it, and so would most aquarists.

Granted that each aquarist has to make his own choice when it comes to the morality of keeping fish in certain conditions or buying certain fish, but admittedly, when you posed the question about whether I would want to stuffed into a closet alone for the rest of my life, I would have to answer, I would rather not be stuffed into a closet at all.
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PostPosted: 2003.05.14(Wed)12:48    Post subject: I have a 5.5 Reply with quote

A nano is possible and very nice. I started with a 5.5 gallon, but knew I did not want fish, over two years ago. I also had over 20 years experience with freshwater and had always heard how difficult salt water was so I hesitated for to long. My reasons for doing a nano were different though. I knew if I could do a nano, successfully, then I would have no problem with a much larger set up of salt water, not to mention the space needed for another large tank. Yes, I did it to prove something to myself, and others who said it couldn
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The Old Salt
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Joined: 01 Apr 2003
Location: Alabama

PostPosted: 2003.05.15(Thu)1:20    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't want to mention it because it ruffles feathers when I do, but I used to be the grow-out manager at Aqualife, a commercial Clownfish & goby farm in the Bahamas. I know a thing or two about clownfish.
That said, the answer to your question is YES, clowns kept in aggregates and clowns kept singly do behave differently from those kept in pairs. We of course had to move and separate them all the time as part of the breeding programme rotation, and it didn't take long for the effects to be noticable. Of course, we really knew our fish, and as such we were able to tell easily whenever there was a problem; it was part of our job. I wouldn't expect everyone to be able to notice the subtle nuances that we were trained to notice, so I know that I have to cut you some slack on this.
At any rate, you said you were open to learning more, and now you have. Now get off the offensive and be a better fishkeeper for it, you fish-haver, you.
( GRR!! I STILL can't figure out the smilies )
..................................

Now, "Guest" did everything right with his/her Nanoreef. Anyone contemplating such a setup would be wise to follow his/her example, and just as importantly, to make a note of the effort and expense that Guest put into it to make it work.
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helenjc
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Joined: 12 Feb 2003

PostPosted: 2003.05.15(Thu)10:30    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting. Had I known it from the beginning, I would probably have gone for the pair, but now my tank is pretty full up in terms of bioload, so not much I can do. I did ask around before making the purchase, and I was never warned. My clown seems happy enough, but maybe someday, I'll get a mate for him.

I knew you would pull out your credentials sooner or later. Wink You seemed pretty experienced in this field.

And if you were serious about the smilies, all you need to do is click on the emoticon that you want while your composing your message....

Like this Arrow Laughing Wink Twisted Evil Shocked Mr. Green
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The Old Salt
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Joined: 01 Apr 2003
Location: Alabama

PostPosted: 2003.05.15(Thu)14:05    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really? That's it?

Okay...testing, testing...

Where'd my cursor go?

EDIT: Rats. Still nothing.
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helenjc
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Joined: 12 Feb 2003

PostPosted: 2003.05.16(Fri)14:20    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still no luck huh? Just click on the message text box, and wherever your cursor is left at, the smiley will appear after you click on one of the faces. In your text box, they will appear just as symbols. Like for the first smiley, the big smile face, when you click on it, the face will just appear as a colon followed by a capital D in your text box. When you click to preview it, though, it will appear as a smiley.
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