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Susan Wright
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Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Location: Tulsa, Ok

PostPosted: 2005.05.08(Sun)22:18    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Glitch.
I am on the outskirts of a big city. Large property, lots of trees.

I apologized for the way the thread went, not for being me.

benedictj, if I insulted anyone in anyway, I am sorry. I won't do it again. As I said I will keep my opinions to myself.

davidk: I don't feel sorry for myself. Just with the way the thread went.

I do contribute to population control, The males that were dumped were fixed before being dumped. Verified by vet. 2 females were fixed out of my pocket. 1 was pregnant when she was dumped. Had her fixed after kittens were born, found kittens good homes. Both Adult cats in the house are fixed and the kitten will be as soon as she is old enough. All nine are kept up with there shots, I give them to them myself. even rabies and feline luk, and feline hiv. The kitten will be kept as a house only cat because of what I went through to keep her alive, I have grown very attached to her.

I used to breed, show and sell kittens (persians) so I do know how to take care of them, I even had contracts that people who bought my kittens to sign, stating that they had to be fixed within a certain time and proof sent to me as I re-imbursed part of the fee. They were to be kept inside at all times. If they decided not to keep the kitten-cat they were more than welcome to bring them back to me to find a new home. They also had 10 days to take the kitten-cat to the vet to verify there health, if something was wrong with the kitten they could get a full refund. So please don't tell me I don't know what I am doing.

With all this said, Please don't feel that I have insulted anyone or anyones intellegence.
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Doosharm
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Joined: 12 Apr 2003
Location: Raymond, NH

PostPosted: 2005.05.08(Sun)22:42    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Susan Wright,

I think it's a very nice thing you're doing taking care of the kitten. It's also nice that you're taking care of all of those other cats. However, have you ever thought about trying to find all of the outdoor cats homes? I don't really agree with DavidK, seeing as he's a cat hater ("I cannot stand cats "), but I think it may be better for the cats to be kept indoors. For one, they won't get hit by a car that way, but also they won't be able to kill any birds or squirrels. I used to not have any problems with keeping cats outside until I went to a lecture with Jeff Corwin (from The Jeff Corwin Experience on Animal Planet) where he enlightened me on the problems that they can cause. Just wondering. good luck with your little kittie!

Doosharm
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Susan Wright
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Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Location: Tulsa, Ok

PostPosted: 2005.05.08(Sun)23:16    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doosharm wrote:
Hey Susan Wright,

I think it's a very nice thing you're doing taking care of the kitten. It's also nice that you're taking care of all of those other cats. However, have you ever thought about trying to find all of the outdoor cats homes? I don't really agree with DavidK, seeing as he's a cat hater ("I cannot stand cats "), but I think it may be better for the cats to be kept indoors. For one, they won't get hit by a car that way, but also they won't be able to kill any birds or squirrels. I used to not have any problems with keeping cats outside until I went to a lecture with Jeff Corwin (from The Jeff Corwin Experience on Animal Planet) where he enlightened me on the problems that they can cause. Just wondering. good luck with your little kittie!

Doosharm


We are trying to find homes for them, Not too many people want full grown cats. I don't like keeping them outside either, But I don't have room for them inside. I don't have all my breeder cages anymore as when I started working didn't have time to do it. had to work weekends so couldn't go to shows anymore. I wish I was still on the farm, but sold it when my husband got to sick to work it. Diabetes got the better of him. Had lots of room there for all the cats to be inside. 1 room was devoted to the cattery, including bathing sinks and such. But alas no more of that. The aspca is trying to find homes for them also, so maybe with any luck they will get good homes. I will keep everyone posted on the cats and my little kitty's growth. and Maybe just maybe David will back off some.
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Mogwai
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Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Location: Bristol, UK

PostPosted: 2005.05.09(Mon)14:22    Post subject: Reply with quote

What a beautiful little kitten, and an interesting topic. Smile
In the UK it's the norm to keep cats with free access to outdoors - it's pretty interesting to see such a different attitude from over the pond. It's also a subject of much debate, but on the whole the opinion here is that keeping cats solely indoors is cruel. I appreciate both sides of the argument - especially as you guys have more natural predators and more traffic over there. I kept my two cats as indoor cats for 2 years - and used to get a LOT of negative comments about it. I have now increased the clan to 3 and they have access to outdoors, but the catflap is locked at 10.30pm to reduce the risk of them being outside with the entire toms fighting and spreading FIV/FeLV.
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davidk
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Joined: 01 May 2005
Location: Long Beach, CA

PostPosted: 2005.05.09(Mon)14:40    Post subject: Reply with quote

I apologize to the forum for being so aggressive. I am very firm when it comes to animal control and owners being responsible.
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Susan Wright
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Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Location: Tulsa, Ok

PostPosted: 2005.05.09(Mon)15:02    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thankyou for your comment. I guess opinions are different on the other side of the big pond. Just make sure to keep the kitties shots up and you shouldn't have any problems with FIV/FeLV. Also if they are spaded/neutered you shouldn't have too much problem of them roaming.

One of the reasons that I keep mine solely indoors is because they are long haired and with squirrels, racoons and possums all over the place here, fleas and ticks could be a big problem, as well as thier coats getting awfully dirty. My persians used to show all the time and they don't mind the baths but its awfully hard to get rid of fleas once they have them. My one male has 83 ribbons to back him up, and the other has championed for me before I had to quit showing.

I'll post some pictures of them sometime.
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Laskey
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Joined: 27 Nov 2004
Location: Northern Germany

PostPosted: 2005.05.10(Tue)3:09    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it's not too off-topic and someone wants another perspective (mine Smile ) then keep reading. This post doesn't address any particular poster, I'm just jumping in with another perspective to the outdoor vs. indoors contention.

Cats can be very happy indoors-only. The thing to do, like you do with any other indoors pet, is to provide them with variety and pay attention to them. They are an animal that does need attention; they have been bred from their former ancestral versions to be this way; it's only our cultural thinking about them that tells us they are animals that like to be left alone and are aloof, and the idea of having a pet that people don't think requires much attention and care appeals to people who don't really want to care for a pet at all, but think they want one.

Mine have full freedom to every room in the house except the little room where we have a big oil heater. Cats can also be leash-trained. It's quite easy to get a cat used to a harness and not freak out wearing one. My leash-trained cat goes crazy with excitement when he sees his leash. We take him outside with it on sunny days, and sit and talk while he sniffs and explores the yard--a wonderful way to get in "family time". Eventually he is bored with outside and wants back in for the rest of the day. The other cat does not want outside at all. There are also outdoor "runners", a large cage of sorts, that can be constructed or bought, just for cats.

You could also look at it this way: We wouldn't keep a horse or cow or goat in our house, sure. But they're not like cats, either. And we wouldn't let them run around outside free-range either. Any animal that must be outside has to have precautions taken and that includes cats, if they must go outside. And all of the instincts to roam and hunt and get into things, dogs DO have too, so think about that too. Have you ever seen dogs let off their leashes in dog parks? Or dogs let loose in the woods running around like banshees, digging and finding things to hunt?

There's a busy street in front of our house. Cats get killed on it all of the time. There's also someone in the neighborhood who kills cats he finds roaming around his house. He killed my neighbor's tiny kitten. I was heartbroken when my neighbor bought two more kittens. Her kittens kept getting hit by cars or mysteriously disappearing or killed. I have persuaded her and now she uses a leash on one cat. She says, luckily, the other cat never leaves the yard. But now they're never unsupervised.

I grew up with many cats around, but they were outdoors cats and now that I'm an adult on my own I will never do that to cats. (REMEMBER THIS WAS WHEN I WAS LITTLE AND IT WASN'T MY DECISION.) One litter of kittens got decimated; something found them under their bush and ate them to bits. Another one came crying up the hill to me with no skin on one side of his body. Another adult female fell off from a high place and had her whole front arm crushed from the "elbow" down. Cats disappeared, got hit by cars, eaten by other aggressive animals, etc. And never trust neighbors unless you know them very well and what their attitude is towards outdoor cats. And don't trust kids you don't know well either, period. If news reports are any indication, kids are becoming crueler and crueler where animals are concerned. No, everyone's "little angels" aren't such little angels like they're made out to be, so let's dispel that myth right now. I must have read hundreds of stories in the last few years about kids torturing animals. Then in the end, people always say, "But he was such a good kid" and act genuinely puzzled.

I have never seen an indoors cat that showed any signs that it was miserable and suffering. Never. Nobody can show me one. I think we like to imagine things about cats just because someone somewhere says something and we don't really look into whether it's true or not. Neither of my cats are miserable or suffering, and bar health problems that haven't cropped up yet, will live much longer and healthier lives than outdoor cats on the average. And happier lives, because they get much love and attention, because in our house when you have a pet, you love it and pay attention to it or else you shouldn't have gotten it in the first place.

Cats that roam outdoors with no supervision and haven't been harmed yet in some way are just lucky, basically. Lucky to have escaped disaster or lucky enough to live in a place with no danger (although I really doubt the no dangers part). Outside and inside are both full of potential dangers, so some control is necessary for being a good cat owner, and outside with no supervision is not a controllable scenario.

Laskey
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@-McP
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Joined: 24 Jul 2004

PostPosted: 2005.05.10(Tue)8:04    Post subject: Reply with quote

I live on a farm. We don't keep cats in the house but we have 2 shopcats and 12 barn cats. They are fed well and supervised. Some over the years have had misfortunes but for the most part the are better off then roaming the country I think. Keeping them in the house is out of the question, because of the number of them. My family's problem is that people drop cats off here without asking...weve found quite a few boxes of kittens on our doorstep/driveway and it is appalling that someone would just abandon them like that but the world isnt full of nice people. When it comes to kittens we find them good homes. Lots of people are looking for cats and will be great owners and care takers. A lot of the people who get cats from us are people we see on a semi regular basis so we can see how little snowball or oreo faired out in the end. I'm by no means a cat person but think they deserve proper care like any animal.
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Mogwai
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Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Location: Bristol, UK

PostPosted: 2005.05.10(Tue)12:16    Post subject: Reply with quote

Susan - sadly the FIV vaccination has not made it across the pond yet - it's a big problem in this country.

Laskey - if only people spent the time with their indoor cats that you do. I completely agree that cats can be happy indoors with enough to do - but the problem is most owners do not (cannot!) provide that stimulation. I have seen many 'indoor' cats euthanased for behavioural problems like destructiveness, indoor spraying, house-soiling, pica (eating unusual objects) unfounded aggression (frustration based?) and one of the worst -what we call 'high-rise syndrome' - whereby an owner keeps a cat cooped up in a 8th floor flat, opens a window one warm day and...you can guess the rest. Not to mention the risks associated with obesity in those indoor cats not exercised enough - diabetes, heart problems and feline lower urinary tract disease - where overweight neutered toms can end up dying when their urethra becomes blocked with crystals, leading to bladder rupture. I also believe that routinely declawing a cat is inhumane - and should only be considered as a last resort, not done for an owner's convienience. It is thankfully illegal in the UK.
I totally agree with your argument - if everyone took the steps you did, and kept cats indoors and lead-trained them, it would be much better - from a safety and hygiene point of view. Likewise - if people took the trouble to fit mesh to their doors/windows there would be no high-rise incidents. The problem with a lot of people is they like cats because they don't want to clean up after their pet - so something that goes out and craps in the neighbour's garden is ideal...
My cats were all initially indoor cats, and as a result of this, they actually come IN to pee and poo rather than going out. Wink
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Susan Wright
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Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Location: Tulsa, Ok

PostPosted: 2005.05.10(Tue)18:16    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Laskey, You are very good at words, a lot better than I am, You stated my sentiments exactly. I know that indoor cats that don't get enough attention can and does have a lot of medical and social problems. You have seen pictures of some of my cats in Aqua Chat, You can tell how spoiled my boys are. As you have seen in my last post I would have the others inside if I had the room. I know lot of people don't like animals and that is why I don't have a lot of visiters, but that is OK. I don't really have time for a whole lot anyway. too busy with my babies.

Mogwai: If I could I would send the FIV vaccinations to you. You might try online at Jeffers Pet Supply and see if they would ship to you and that way at least your cats would be protected. I will see if I can find any that will ship to the UK. I don't believe in declawing either unless circumstances demands it. 1 of mine had to have dew claws removed because of the way that they would grow into his pads.

I am glad that most people feel the way I do about the strays, and around here the dogs are just as bad. One of our dogs was tossed out of a moving vehicle in front of my daughter. She got the tag number and rescued the puppy. My long haired dauchund(spelling?) was dumped at my son - in - laws job.

1 last comment. The one mama kitty was adopted today by an older lady that lives alone and will be her companion for the rest of her life.
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