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A Humane Issue
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@-McP
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Joined: 24 Jul 2004

PostPosted: 2005.04.09(Sat)18:01    Post subject: Reply with quote

I completely agree with benedictj. look at the killing of seals in Canada. doesn't happen anymore because people stood up for the animals. It put many Inuit out of their traditional way of life, but as times are progressing EVERYONE has to. No matter how multicultural a country is assimilation has to occur to some extent. but this argument could get dangerousluy political so Ill stop there Smile
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Nova_C
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Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Location: Calgary, AB

PostPosted: 2005.04.09(Sat)19:09    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually the seal is hunt is going on right now, I believe. I protest the methods, which are reminiscent of the skinning from china in that video, but not the hunt itself. According to estimates, seal populations are booming.
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Glitch
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Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Steamboat Springs,CO

PostPosted: 2005.04.09(Sat)19:57    Post subject: Reply with quote

benedictj
The problem lies in getting people to stop buying fur from places like that one in China. Which would require teaching them to care about something that they see as "just a dumb animal so who cares" That is not something that can be done easiley. Look at racsism, the world still hasn't got past it with humans, what make's you think it will be easier with animals? You'd think that the same race thing would help but it doesn't, so the different race thing will most likely make it worse if anything.

(Note I DO NOT think animals are dumb, in many way's I think they are smarter, I was quoting others I have heard describe them as that.)
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benedictj
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Joined: 05 Dec 2004
Location: new york, ny

PostPosted: 2005.04.09(Sat)20:17    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, Glitch, I completely agree with that. I sort of viewed your post in the opposite context. Alternately, countries can embargo certain products for reasons like these, though it is unlikely to happen, at least here in the US.

Also, I think the Inuit/Seal thing brings an interesting nuance into the debate. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with the Inuit hunting seals, as long as it is for sustinance and not profit. It is euro-caucasian and latin cultures who are to blame for the endangerment issues surrounding seals and many other North American animals, not the Inuit. For thousands of years before Henry Hudson, Berring and Cabot, native peoples succesfully managed species conservation without scientific survey data. In my eye, that is more of a culture issue than the Chinese fur trade (which exists solely as a vehicle of commerce, not as a cultural means of sustinence).
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Glitch
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Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Steamboat Springs,CO

PostPosted: 2005.04.09(Sat)20:35    Post subject: Reply with quote

benedictj
The US has blocked Items before. In the Caymen Islands they eat sea turtles and use there shells and other non-edibles for other things much like the native americans with there game, but here it is Illegal to import any sea turtle products due to there endangerd species listing. However fur is a status symbol to many well off people, whom control companies that would sell those products, and therefor will not stop selling it out of there own vanity.

Welcome to the Civilized World where what you own and wear makes you what you're worth Rolling Eyes (I Almost wish it worked that way... NOT) Wink
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benedictj
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Joined: 05 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: 2005.04.09(Sat)21:10    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are essentially making the same point, Glitch. As far as embargos go, I realize there are many of them including ivory, turtle products, rhino horn, etc. I actually have an old, pre-embargo sperm whale ivory that was handed down in my family as well as a sizable piece of bayleen from the turn of the last century. (I have a nautical family).

Believe me, I'm very aware of the vain nature of things and the myriad of reasons we wouldn't embargo (frankly, I think that the objections of the Madison ave fur coated ladies would take a back seat to foreign owned debt and our dependence on embargo free, tarriff free export in light of such a huge trade deficit). I realize fully that I sound very idealistic but I certainly am not going to accept it despite it being 'status quo', nor would I advocate acceptance.
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Glitch
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Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Steamboat Springs,CO

PostPosted: 2005.04.09(Sat)21:30    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well then benedictj why don't we just keep rambling on our own opinions so everyone else gets to hear how perfect the world would be if we ran it Laughing that way at least we could say we were taking active measures to improve the world (instead of just complaining about it) Rolling Eyes I mean after all no one is better than us Wink

Just Kidding sheesh!, sorry benedictj there is no room in my God Complex for anyone else. So Switch all the "we" to "I" statements and then read it to see what I realy think Cool Wink Yes Gods real name is John aka Glitch
Just remember to flush the 'jon' after each ego trip to the bath room. thanks and have a nice day
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@-McP
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Joined: 24 Jul 2004

PostPosted: 2005.04.10(Sun)8:32    Post subject: Reply with quote

So after some research the seal hunt was banned from the late 80's until 96. My info from school was all early 90's material. my bad Embarassed interestingly enough the population of seals was recovering until the reintroduction of the seal hunt in 96 since which millions of pups are killed each year.

http://www.hsus.org/marine_mammals/protect_seals/facts_about_the_canadian_seal_hunt.html
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Nova_C
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Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Location: Calgary, AB

PostPosted: 2005.04.10(Sun)19:32    Post subject: Reply with quote

Millions? That's an interesting number. The quota allowed by the Canadian government this year is, I think, 335,000. If 'millions' are being killed, then something is going on up there.

As far as sustenance goes, the fur trade keeps those communities alive. Its not easy to tell a people that they can't live where their families have been for a thousand years because fur is no longer appropriate. I don't like fur clothes either, but you know how stubborn people are. Even if it means abject poverty, many of those families will not leave and without the fur trade, it could very well mean third world nation conditions.

- Edit: That article claims the seal hunt isn't economically important, but that's not the full story. I'd suggest anyone who is really interested do a little more research. The fisheries in the North have been shutting down in recent years for a variety of reasons. Atlantic Canada has some of Canada's poorest communities. The new offshore oil rigs aim to change that, but it'll be a while before they take any large effect.
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Mobern
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Joined: 11 Feb 2005

PostPosted: 2005.04.12(Tue)20:56    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was a time before I became a vegetarian where when I first found out that some ranches or fur industries were really cruel to animals I really researched it and the more I found out the more I wanted everyone to know the truth because really... few people know the truth. Its like (for example) the fact that LOTS of people are dying every day in Africa because of diseases that they don't have the technology to treat.

Lots of people donate money and go over there to help out but many people see a story about it in the paper and don't give it a second thought. This, I think, applies to many cases of all animal cruelty and in everyone's life. Its easier to ignore the hard stuff and just allow yourself the good--> a nice filet mignon steak for dinner... yummm (it sure has been a looong time since I've had one of those. )

However, I personally just feel weird about eating meat so I don't. Thats just me and there's other people who do the same and the majority have different views. Like I know lots of people who love animals and have the best intentions and know that killing animals even for meat is wrong though they eat meat and thats fine with me... I'm not judging them. I can see how they think however. They don't see how not eating meat will help... and the truth is for all the vegetarians out there... we are doing VERY little for animals in being vegetarians. Animals are still being killed whether I we eat them or not. Statistics say that 90 cows are saved a year due to vegetarians... thats something but its really barely anything. My view is just that is uncomfortable for me to personally eat meat.

I think that everyone should be informed about what is going on today on our planet that people are doing that may be good or bad and what we can each do to help and what we are doing that isn't helping.

I think that everyone should learn from past happenings and learn what happened so that a future repeat of the incident could be prevented. I have however visited some Holocaust museums where they go way overboard trying to give the tourists a first person EXPERIENCE of what the holocaust was like (you get to watch videos about the "showers" while sitting in a closed in exact replica of a "shower" as used in the holocaust... talk about downright terrifying and not just educational anymore! Shocked )

So, I think that its good to know what is happening in the fur industry so that we may be able to look at fur coat labels and be sure the buy the ones that aren't made in china... or buy anything thats made in Taiwan because of the whole child labor going on there that we shouldn't be supporting, well in my opinion.

So, I think that this video here is a good example of what really goes on but please don't kill yourselves thinking that its good to see lots of videos like this because I once thought that because even after I knew the truth I thought I should "experience" it more because of the poor animals... well, I had a few hard months there trying to get just one night of sleep without nightmares...
Yeah, so I'm just encouraging you all that its good to know whats happening today in our world society and to know what we can do and are willing to do but not to overkill in the personal "experience" part of it--trying to educate yourself a bit too much isn't healthy...but remember not to be pretending what goes on isn't happening just because it hurts less (you have to find the right balance between refraining from the absolute truth for your own personal health/safety and educating youself so that you may be able to contribute in whatever way you want/can).

I hope I didn't come off as offensive or know-it-allish or idiotic in this post... just stating some of my opinions in a way where it may seem I'm applying what I'm saying to more than it really applies to...

mobern
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