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A Humane Issue
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dale
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Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Location: Vancouver Canada

PostPosted: 2005.04.07(Thu)21:55    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here here Smile
I was being very lighthearted about the ganging up thing.
I think we become sensitive to criticism depending on our own viewpoint. Something that I might not notice may be taken offensively by someone else and viceversa.
But hey, how could I judge others anyways.. really? I still rip the ears off corn and gouge the eyes out of potatoes not to mention the things I do to a head of lettuce (I toss it for gods sake.. I toss it!). Just the other day I beat an egg half to death, it was reduced to a quivering mass.
Oh, the humanity Wink
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Marcos Avila
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Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Location: Hiroshima (JP)

PostPosted: 2005.04.07(Thu)23:31    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Friends,

I've been sitting here for the past 10 minutes pondering whether I should post or not this link to a page that was just sent to me today, but I've decided to do it.

It's a video that shows the reality of the animal fur industry in China, to be sold for making fur coats for madams and socialites in the "civilized" world. It's one of the most shocking and depressing videos I've ever seen, but I forced myself to watch it to the end (more than 30 minutes) in respect to the animals shown in it...may their deaths at least have some meaning beyond satisfying someone's vanity...I made a personal choice of not allowing myself to remain indifferent and not pretending that this doesn't happen.

But, for all that is dear to you, PLEASE DO NOT SEE IT if you don't have the stomach and the emotional structure for such, or close the window as soon as you start feeling too bad. Consider yourself warned, because it's very difficult to be the same after watching it.

This video should be mandatory exhibition inside any shop in the First World that commercializes animal fur...

http://www.strasbourgcurieux.com/fourrure/

I sincerely apologize in advance for probably swiping away any remaining lightheartedness that this "Humane Issue" topic still had...
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Last edited by Marcos Avila on 2005.04.08(Fri)7:30; edited 2 times in total
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benedictj
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Joined: 05 Dec 2004
Location: new york, ny

PostPosted: 2005.04.07(Thu)23:58    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fortunately, my connection keeps freezing whenever it gets to the skinning sequence. Still, that is some of the most harrowing stuff I have ever seen. It makes the "rabbit sequence" from Roger and Me seem almost normal.

While, as I have said before, I'm not a PETA person, I do make a point of voicing my disgust for the fur industry when I'm on the streets. Living in New York, I can tell you that everytime I walk around the Upper East Side or on Park Ave in Midtown I'm stunned by how alive the fur industry is. I have had a few semi-heated verbal sparring matches on the street about this.

Sadly but fittingly, I find that the folks who wear fur here in NYC fancy themselves sophisticates and humans of the highest order, though there is nothing sophisticated or human about this. Also, and I don't really care if this offends anyone, but I have found that the few people I have met socially that wear fur are some of the most loathsome, narcassistic, arrogant and misanthropic people I have ever encountered. They are, in every way, monsters of ego, vanity, and ignorance. (and I will also add that a great share of the women I see wearing fur give the impression that their coats are the most natural piece of them, if you know what I mean- Ewwww).
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Destany
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Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Location: Missouri

PostPosted: 2005.04.08(Fri)6:42    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Fortunately, my connection keeps freezing whenever it gets to the skinning sequence. Still, that is some of the most harrowing stuff I have ever seen. It makes the "rabbit sequence" from Roger and Me seem almost normal


You're really lucky there benedict. I'm sorry I watched it. I told myself not to, but I did it anyway. You think you know something, but when you see it like that... I had to turn it off after the skinning, it was all I could take. And I just couldn't understany WHY??? Why couldn't they atleast kill them decently and make sure they're dead before they do that to them? I'm going to have some serious nightmares...
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Glitch
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Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Steamboat Springs,CO

PostPosted: 2005.04.08(Fri)12:23    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please remember China is a very different county from the USA or Canada. one of there favorite fancy meals involves eating a live monkey's brain. By most of our standards that is Not a good thing, so some of there other practices may fall in the same catagory. They arn't bad or evil it's simply a differant culture with different rules and ethics.
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number6
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Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Location: Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: 2005.04.08(Fri)13:16    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glitch wrote:
They arn't bad or evil it's simply a differant culture with different rules and ethics.
Glitch, that's kind of a load, right?
If I claimed to come from a culture where I was allowed to kill you for disagreeing with me... am I from another culture? or am I just plain wrong?

Hey, the culture arguement has been played to death on Star trek... Klingons and such... that's stuff for science fiction... not reality.

Besides, no culture on the planet admires cruelty. Some may permit cruelty if they feel its justified. There is no way that any culture would condone 'extreme pain' without justification.

Now here's a moral quagmire for the animal lovers... rat traps... I won't go into detail on how they die in one of those... lets just say broken necks are rare... warfarin deaths or worse so we won't go there... yet rats need to have the numbers contolled in most cases so we condone traps as a necessary evil...

I love philosophical discussions on 100% grey areas! Rolling Eyes
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Glitch
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Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Steamboat Springs,CO

PostPosted: 2005.04.08(Fri)13:33    Post subject: Reply with quote

Discus Man
Its true "no culture on the planet admires cruelty" however each culture defines it in there own way. No one can force a culture to change without becoming As or More cruel than what they are trying to change, unless it is by education, and thousands of years. Life changes slowly through evolution and education. Life changes quickly through stupidity and war. Sad

As for "There is no way that any culture would condone 'extreme pain' without justification." Yea well, how hard is it to justify something if you realy want to. Rolling Eyes

I do agree that philosophical discussions on 100% grey areas are fun because they force all to think.(that is If they want to play, as well)
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dale
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Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Location: Vancouver Canada

PostPosted: 2005.04.09(Sat)2:51    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm almost afraid to reply because I will sound like I'm either an
a. geek
b. "I'm so good" type,
c. both
but actually... I have a live rat trap.
*warning, long rambling post ahead*
As Discus man stated it started as a personal moral dilemna. I had rats in my house and I didn't want to kill them but I thought "what else can I do? can't have rats in the house." I talked to a like minded friend and he suggested live trapping. Believe me, it sounded crazy at the time. I priced out a trap $29.99 and thought "Oh my god, 29.99 for a rat!" but then I thought "what price do I place on my principles?" so I bought the darn thing and... it works like a charm.
It seems like a goofy situation and I am always the first one to laugh at myself but there were some interesting spin offs from the experience:
a. My circle of friends now have access to a live trap for rats and squirrels (a pain in the attic).
b. My little kids were REALLY excited to take the "big mice" for a ride to the woods.
c. My teenage son saw an example of standing firm for a principle, even when it costs you.
I get a kick out of my son, he is like the raptors in Jurrasic park, always testing the wire (and waving sausages under my nose). I drive him nuts because my choice isn't intellectually based and so can't be changed by intellectual arguement. I just feel what I feel (and I let others feel what they feel as well).
The fur thing is interesting (and very sad). I was presented with similar images in elementary school. My principal was the president of "Ban the leg hold traps" and we were shown these films of wolves and beavers and such chewing their own legs off etc... bet you couldn't show that to kids today!
On the other extreme,
Some time ago local animal rights activists thought they would do the "right thing" by liberating a bunch of mink from a mink farm near here. They opened the cages and released about 3000 mink into the surrounding area. How's that for a predator spike. Of course it wasn't so bad for the eco system because a whole bunch of them were run over by cars as they had no idea what a road was for. Crazy crazy crazy.
Well that's it, I'm spent.
As mama always said "remember, when you're pointen your finger at someone else, there's three more pointen back at you."
That mama Rolling Eyes
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GothicAvatar96
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Joined: 23 Dec 2004

PostPosted: 2005.04.09(Sat)6:20    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hrm repulsive .......... I don't want to sound like a psycho but if I EVER were to witness such a blatant display of cruelty. I'm afraid the lives of those "merchants" or whatever the hell they are would be forfeit. However I do realise that would make me no better than they are. But I'm afraid my overwhelming emotions would get the jump on me.
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benedictj
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Joined: 05 Dec 2004
Location: new york, ny

PostPosted: 2005.04.09(Sat)12:47    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glitch wrote:
Discus Man
No one can force a culture to change without becoming As or More cruel than what they are trying to change, unless it is by education, and thousands of years. Life changes slowly through evolution and education. Life changes quickly through stupidity and war. Sad


I disagree with this in a way. This is something that can be changed relatively quickly because it is entirely an issue of supply and demand. We don't need to declare war on anyone or be particularly cruel to put an end to this. All that needs to be done is for people to simply stop buying fur. Plain and simple.

Will that threaten someone's livelihood? Certainly, but in a country that is experiencing an economic boom like China, it is doubtful that it will force anyone into a greater level of poverty. Ultimately, if you took away the fur trade, the people involved in it would likely move on to other lines of work (this is typically how all economies work).
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