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A Humane Issue
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@-McP
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Joined: 24 Jul 2004

PostPosted: 2005.04.04(Mon)18:57    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not the yogurt! poor little guys Rolling Eyes seriously, some excellent points marcos Smile
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Mobern
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Joined: 11 Feb 2005

PostPosted: 2005.04.04(Mon)19:39    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just think that I'd rather live in a world where I felt comfortable eating meat. Naturally, animals kill for survival. Nowadays and with the human mind, taste and grade and origin and price is all mixed in to eating meat. Also, the meat that we're eating isn't all free range. I just meant to say that I would eat meat if the animals weren't forced to live in such horrible conditions.
As far as in slaughter houses, there are different places where animals are kept. There's places where the animals are kept until they grow up... there's the places animals are kept right before they are slaughtered etc. I'm talking about places where they grow up. Not all animals are killed right after they are born. For a few years or much longer many animals are forced to live in tiny and unsanitary cages. This just seems mean to me and so I don't eat meat for this reason.
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Nova_C
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Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Location: Calgary, AB

PostPosted: 2005.04.04(Mon)20:06    Post subject: Reply with quote

It depends on where you're taking your information. I've lived in or near Calgary, Alberta all my life. Calgary is called cowtown for a reason Razz

Most of my extended family owns ranches. I have yet to see any mistreatment of animals in the hundreds of ranches and farms that I've been on (I hunt gophers every summer. I won't deny that I enjoy it, but I wouldn't do it if their populations didn't explode every summer). The cattle that I saw grew up being raised on massive grazing lands and only were loaded onto trucks and sent to a slaughterhouse at the time they were to be slaughtered. Around here, this isn't the exception, this is the norm. Massive market share in Canada belongs to the good ranchers, not the bad ones.

At any rate, I would just like to point out that predators in the wild start eating their prey long before its dead. As soon as its down, its being munched on. My experience has taught me that around here, the animals used for slaughter are treated more humanely than nature designed. Hell, my piranhas left feeder goldfish alive with less than half their body intact. I eat meat with no guilt or hesitation.
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55g:
3 x Silvertip Tetra 1" (?)
2 x Red Bellied Piranha 4"
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Glitch
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Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Steamboat Springs,CO

PostPosted: 2005.04.05(Tue)21:45    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just have to say, I usualy would go with "the rule of the jungle" kill to eat or to keep from being eaten. I Hunt, and when I can I have a garden so I cover the whole omnivore thing.

When it comes to "Free Range" keep in mind there is only so much space in the world and as always when something is needed and space is tight, corners get cut and ethics can vanish. It is not a good thing, but the only way to stop it, is to allow for more open space and to assist those who would use it properly. So basicly the problem lies within amounts of space that living things take up. The worlds one Big Tank and we can't upgrade. So keep everything balanced and nothing will suffer. Go out of balance, and get cloudy water, or worse a huge amonia spike.
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dale
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Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Location: Vancouver Canada

PostPosted: 2005.04.06(Wed)22:34    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey everyone,
Poor Mobern, you guys are circling him like a bunch of buz... Laughing
But seriously, I am also a vegetarian, for my own reasons, and never try to convince anyone that their beliefs are either right or wrong (I try to focus on what I'm doing - not trying to tell others what they should do).
I definately am not P.E.T.A.ish as I disagree with some of their positions, the reasons they hold those positions and most of their tactics.
Oddly enough, many times when my preference is discovered (I really don't have veggie boy tattooed on my forehead.. really) I am ribbed and chided by the meat eaters who try to challenge me on my belief system. Strange but true.
*Anal Technical note: Vegan means not eating meat or animal products of any kind ie eggs, milk, honey. Vegetarian means not eating meat.
As a tipical Canadian I can, as usual, see both sides of the issue. I have grown up around, and involved in, agriculture for most of my life and have see the best and worst. From 4H pride to chicken farm horror. I have also hunted gophers, castrated sheep, put down animals and used to LOVE to fish. Now I don't (except for the sheep Wink ).
But that's just me and I've learned that if I'm going to live in an aquarium, I'd better not throw stones. I just wanted to say that Vegetarians, like tofu, come in all shapes and sizes.. and I felt really bad for Mobern
Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad ... Rolling Eyes
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Nova_C
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Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Location: Calgary, AB

PostPosted: 2005.04.07(Thu)14:51    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dale, I don't have a problem with people being vegetarian or vegan. That's a choice that really doesn't have anything to do with me. The only thing I was debating was his reasons. He paints all ranches with the same brush. That's in the same category as calling people who do eat meat monsters for it. Anyway you look at it, something has to die so that another might live. A carrot has life, too.
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If I were a man with gills, I would be a fish.

55g:
3 x Silvertip Tetra 1" (?)
2 x Red Bellied Piranha 4"
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Mobern
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Joined: 11 Feb 2005

PostPosted: 2005.04.07(Thu)17:01    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do realize that some ranches are MUCH kinder to animals than others but to prove my point of why I personally don't like to eat meat, its because of the ranches that aren't as kind...

I'm sorry if I offended you ranchers out there but I was just using the worst examples as evidence to prove my point because its for those worst examples that I don't eat meat...

I'm not here to try to change anyone's mind or prove them wrong... I've met many people who could care less about animals and they'll kick around dogs without and care and even though I don't choose that lifestyle I still respect that they are who they are and its not my responsibility to tell them what they are doing is wrong.

I've really just been defending myself on this topic as it really turned into something I didn't mean for it to but now that its out in the open... why not talk, right?

So, I apologize to those who think I was going about the whole thing wrong... I probably was. But understand that my point of view is pretty laid back and that I have my opinions but I really just wanted to hear everyone elses opinions so people could see the diversity within this forum and everyone would kind of get to know each other better but I didn't mean for it to turn into a debate...

mobern
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Nova_C
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Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Location: Calgary, AB

PostPosted: 2005.04.07(Thu)17:28    Post subject: Reply with quote

Debates are good. Smile Mobern, I wasn't offended or upset. I just wanted to ensure that the bad ranchers don't ruin the reputations of all ranchers. I understand your objections and respect your opinion. There are truly some awful people out there. The best barometer of humanity is in how we treat those that are dependent on us, regardless of what form that dependence might take.
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If I were a man with gills, I would be a fish.

55g:
3 x Silvertip Tetra 1" (?)
2 x Red Bellied Piranha 4"
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Glitch
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Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Steamboat Springs,CO

PostPosted: 2005.04.07(Thu)19:00    Post subject: Reply with quote

I totaly dido Nova_C point of view. People say don't rock the boat, I say if the boat isn't rocking your not going anywhere. So keep it up the more opinions that get out there the more likely we all are to make better decissions.
All information is good opinion or fact. Very Happy
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Narf I think so Brain, but how do you tune a piano made out of spam?
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@-McP
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Joined: 24 Jul 2004

PostPosted: 2005.04.07(Thu)20:33    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought that this was staying fairly civil considering how potentially volitile it is. nobody is getting ganged up on. we arent trying to prove each other wrong here, but voice our opinions and show why we believe they are right Wink
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