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A Humane Issue
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Cory
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Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Location: London

PostPosted: 2005.04.03(Sun)18:05    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obviously anyone who's not prepared to keep a pet in the conditions it requires to live happily should not be keeping a pet. However when it comes to eating meat, we're omnivores and as such meat is an important part of our diet (that includes fish). We need to farm because there aren't anough animals to provide food by hunting and most animals are breed for food anyway. The argument that it takes more grain to feed animals than it would to feed people if we didn't eat meat is irrelevant, some places can't sustain arable farming and besides they provide different nutrients. As for testing on animals for cosmetic reasons I'm against it but for medicinal reasons and scientific research I'm all for it. I wouldn't want to use a drug that hadn't been proved safe by animal testing. Nor would I wan't to prevent a cure for cancer or a breakthrough in space travel because some hippy didn't want a rabbit to die.

The bottom line is people are more important than animals.
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Cory
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Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Location: London

PostPosted: 2005.04.03(Sun)18:08    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mobern wrote:
. All the most horrible events in the worlds including slavery and the Holocaust were started when some people thought of others as lesser and not equal.


Comparing animals to human slaves and the victims of the holocaust is not only extremely insulting to the victims of these events but also to human intelligence aswell.
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@-McP
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Joined: 24 Jul 2004

PostPosted: 2005.04.03(Sun)20:02    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mobern I think you need to read some info other than the biased propaganda of PETAesque groups.

The fact that you think slaughter houses house animals for their entire life shows your unawareness here. Look up the word slaughter. It is a building dedicated to the killing of animals and sometimes multitask as a facility where butchering takes place. As far as how the animals are killed if you really want to know PM me because I don't want to post the description on the net and scare some kids. Its not really that bad but better safe then sorry. Lets just say it is very quick.

You also contradict yourself saying you're a vegan, but would eat venison. That statement makes no sense. Wink

I agree that the feeding of animals to each other is wrong, and I agree with
all of the government organizations who have setup guidelines to stop this. It IS illegal just for the record.

If you really want to see how a feedlot/pasture cattle operation is run and you have the time and funds ill put you up for a few days and even pick you up from the airport. Winnipeg International is best for me...You might just be surprised at how well the animals are treated, my parents have more pictures of our cattle than of us kids Rolling Eyes lol. If you want I can show you some dairy, fryer and layer operations (chickens and free range btw), hog barns(one industry that I agree needs improvements but people are trying Smile ). There is animal abuse out there, and unfortunately it gets more press than the good operations. Its one of those one bad apple ruins the barrell situation.
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benedictj
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Joined: 05 Dec 2004
Location: new york, ny

PostPosted: 2005.04.03(Sun)23:02    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I think there is definitely a balance to strike between what Mobern is saying and what you're saying McP. I have personally been a vegatarian, it didn't stick. I fell victim to the dirtiest, yet one of the tasiest meat products- sausage (Hot BBQ D Italian on a mustard smothered baguette with a cold brew on the fourth of july, I couldn't resist).

Anyway, I do have to say that animals we use for food could be kept in better conditions. Veal, as tasty as it is, is raised in horrible conditions. Most chickens are raised in similarly horrible conditions.

The entirety of our society is based upon productivity and efficency. With the death of the family farm in the 80s, large corporations began handling the majority of our agricultural needs. This meant, since the charge of a corp is to provide profits to its shareholders, that they are compelled to produce as much product as possible with the least amount of overhead-a large portion of this overhead is adequate grazing space. Add bigger animals injected with growth hormones (this applies to chickens as well as cows). It is pretty well documented that a bunch of these "more bang fo the buck" products are actually detrimental to both those who consume them and the animals themselves- yet the corporations quash this info from being released. (BGH milk causes cancer in lab rats and dramatically increases outbreaks of mastitis in cows- call Monsanto (the same guys who brought us agent orange) and see if you can get sued for implying it- or watch Outfoxed or if you can find it, a documentary called "The Corporation" -both of these films document this fact).

Further, at least for we Americans, meat regulation is a complete joke. The USDA is an insufferably incompetent organization which literally rubberstamps foods as "safe for consumption".

Thank god for the rise of free range meats.

All that said, I grew up in an agricultural area and worked as a weekend farm hand (read stall mucker/bale tosser) when I was young. I can definitely say that dairy cows do have it fairly good, and the few beef cattle I encountered in Vermont seemed fairly happy, though I have never seen a cow or steer express any emotion other than fear or curiosity. I see where you're coming from McP, but then again, I'm sure you and your family doesn't operate like that heartless thug Frank Perdue.
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@-McP
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Joined: 24 Jul 2004

PostPosted: 2005.04.03(Sun)23:22    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not going to argue that there arent problems with some practices when raising livestock but being part of the rather large group ofproducers who are implementing more animal friendly procedures, which are as natural as possible, statements like the following can strike a nerve:

"I really think that animals should be treated less horribly on a whole because they never really did anything wrong and some people just decided that to make more money, animals had to suffer more so the animals got the worse end of it I guess"

Animal abuse happens, it isnt limited to agriculture. Because farmer "a" gets busted for having inhumane conditions he makes the news and thats what people see and often times will assume to be the norm. Unfortunately farmers "b" through "z" who are taking good care of their stock are forgotten. Use of hormones is something that my family and many other producers DO NOT condone but it is out there. There are many concientious operations across the board that are looking out for the animals well being and will even take a cut in profit to ensure that the animal has a better life than what could possibly have happened to them. I guess what I'm trying to say is what happens in some operations is horrible, there is no way anyone can deny that, but you can't make a vague generalization about farming practices.
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benedictj
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Joined: 05 Dec 2004
Location: new york, ny

PostPosted: 2005.04.03(Sun)23:53    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh no, completely, I agree. Frankly, I try to buy free range anti-biotic free as much as I can (which means I eat it almost exclusively). I definitely don't fault anyone who does anything responsibly. The issue is that the folks who engage in abusive practices have massive market share-which means millions of animals are being treated poorly. There is a lot of the darker side of human nature in what they do.

As far as the whole PETA type, animals are just innocent little things arguement, I agree. You can't summarily discount the food chain and savegry of nature because you think shamu was cute and had personality (I mean there was a point in his life where he killed baby seals, who are infinitely cuter and have more personality). And comparing the fate of mistreated animals to the holocaust is just infalmitory rhetoric imo.
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@-McP
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Joined: 24 Jul 2004

PostPosted: 2005.04.04(Mon)11:58    Post subject: Reply with quote

benedictj I almost entirely agree with your last post. the only thing is anti biotic free. using hormones to boost production is IMO wrong. using antibiotics to treat illness is what I would consider responsible. when you go to the vet the bottles/pamphlets that come with bottle have the guidelines for how long you have to wait after finishing using to slaughter an animal. the Canadian Food Inspection Agency strictly monitors/tests for "foreign" substances and enforce this with an iron fist. I just think if an animal needs antibiotics to treat something we shouldnt deny it from them. Smile
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number6
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Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Location: Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: 2005.04.04(Mon)12:02    Post subject: Reply with quote

@-McP wrote:
the only thing is anti biotic free.
there is an idea that farmers treat animals with anti-biotics prophalatically.
Several chciken farms were found to be doing so about 10 yrs ago. I've never hear do fit since but it seems to be one of those notions pretty accepted without verification of any kind.
I think this is what benedict refers to.
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@-McP
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PostPosted: 2005.04.04(Mon)12:08    Post subject: Reply with quote

ic what you're saying now, sorry for the confusion Wink
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Marcos Avila
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Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Location: Hiroshima (JP)

PostPosted: 2005.04.04(Mon)18:09    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do tend to take the issue rather lightly. I find it both annoying and amusing when people come around all full of strong opinions questioning how others can keep animals as pets and eat animals at the same time. To me it's just a manifestation of their own personal dilemmas, they're just lashing out because the issue is poorly thought out and poorly resolved in their own minds. Same goes for people who can't understand how we can keep a predator fish as a pet and feed other fish to it. Duh! Some even go as far as calling this "cannibalism" which denounces just how poor of a grasp they have on the issue.

On a related topic, one of my personal gripes is against the subgroup of PETA types that I call PETCLA - People for the Ethical Treatment of Cute Little Animals. These are just anthropomorphists who go crazy because little bunnies are being raised and then slaughtered for food, but don't seem very bothered at all by shrimp being raised for the same purpose.

What about yogurt/yakult and the like? Oh the horror...all those poor little lactobacteria being cultivated by the millions in totally confined media, just to be eaten ALIVE by evil humans...how come nobody ever complains about THAT? Wink

These issues need to be resolved internally, in each individual's mind. We need to find our own reasoning, our own moral, drawing the line wherever WE feel comfortable with it, and eventually moving it around a little in one direction or another as we mature. The questionable practice occurs when people start assuming that just because THEY drew the line over point A then everybody else needs to draw the line at the same point or they're WRONG.

But now my rambling is drifting dangerously into religion space so I'll stop here Wink
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Last edited by Marcos Avila on 2005.04.04(Mon)19:32; edited 4 times in total
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