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A Humane Issue
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Mobern
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Joined: 11 Feb 2005

PostPosted: 2005.03.31(Thu)21:39    Post subject: A Humane Issue Reply with quote

You know theres so many topics on this site about how to humanely keep fish. So many people are pro-fishless cycle and pro-overfiltered/understocked. I know that there are issues in keeping any pet about what is the right or wrong thing to do but some people in this topic seem so into keeping their fish as happy as possible that I wonder how serious this issue is for some people...

There is an ongoing debate about anything kept in a cage/tank from birds to reptiles to fish and whether or not it is OK to keep pets in cages as long as certain guidelines or followed...

I mean dogs and cats are severely mistreated by their owners and there are shows on TV about societies that save these mistreated animals...

Then theres the issue of eating meat... Is is supporting the horrible abuse forced upon millions of cows, chickens, pigs etc. every year?

I just wanted to see what people though about animal abuse in general and what some of you did in your own lives that helped or hurt all the animals in the world today...
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redflame56262
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Joined: 22 Mar 2005
Location: Houston,TX

PostPosted: 2005.03.31(Thu)23:02    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can I ask you something? Are you a vegeterian?
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SLACkra
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Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

PostPosted: 2005.04.01(Fri)2:06    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not a vegitarian, I don't like red meat though so chickens beware! I am a strong beleiver that humans are predators. I prefer to eat chickens that are free range and not the ones in those tini cages give them some fun while they're still alive. I personally think fishless cycling is the way to go, as I used damsels and eventually a large tommato clown to cycle my first saltwater. My second saltwater my nano was cycle using the prawn method. I also think that the laws against animal abuse should be stronger and more enforced with harsher punishments.

my 2 cents,

andrew
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Taratron
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Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Location: AZ

PostPosted: 2005.04.01(Fri)4:34    Post subject: Reply with quote

As for animal abuse....I worked at PetsMart for two years, and from the first four months on, I was the best customer service rep they had that was also a spy against the company. In other words, I told people what they needed to know, not what PetsMart's oh so helpful little phampletts said.

As for a few other animals, I breed mice to feed to some of my snakes who refuse to go onto frozen and prekilled food. But up until the moment they are attacked, the mice have pretty damn good lives; clean cages every week, daily fresh water, the best mixes of food money can buy, exercise wheels, new tubes to run and chew on, the best care I can give. I've seen many pet stores where the feeder mice have no food, little water, and are basically, food wise, worthless to any predator nutrients wise.

I am not a vegan; I love my steak and chicken and fish. My stepdad and mom regularly go fishing, and 99% of the time they use catch and release. My stepdad is also a hunter, and I tell you honestly that every part a human can eat of the deer or elk, we get (and pass on to others too, neighbors and the like), and what humans can't but others can, he gives to a local wildlife shelter.

As for laws....just today I was talking to a parole officier (NOT mine, as some of you would think, but a teacher's wife) who is in charge of several sex offender cases in Phoenix here. Hearing a few numbers shocked me. No names, of course...but the fact that there is an ex-priest living somewhere within 20 miles of me who had 1,500 victims, all hitchhikers (and the number is exact, for this man had obsessive-compulsive disorder and videotaped every single act), and got the maximum sentence of 15 years in jail. 15 YEARS is the maximum. No life in prison, nothing like that. My rather pessimistic thoughts with this knowledge is that humans regard each others' lives rather lowly, and animals, for the most part, less, unless the animal in question happens to be a cute puppy or kitten. Ever seen any "animal" Cops show? It's a rare snake that is rescued, but trust me, starved and abused snakes happen pretty much as often as abused puppies. The latter are cuter; the former people still kill for their skins.

I had somewhere I was going with this...I'll figure it out later.
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@-McP
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Joined: 24 Jul 2004

PostPosted: 2005.04.01(Fri)8:50    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing Tara that was definetely going somewhere...If you figure the rest out post it Wink lol

as far as animal abuse Id just like to address the statement about:

"Is is supporting the horrible abuse forced upon millions of cows, chickens, pigs etc. every year?"

this is very much a blanket statement. lumping cattle in with chickens and pigs isnt exactly fair. Beef cattle are free range. It doesn't make sense to have them cramped up in cages...walking around helps develop firm muscle, that is of desirable colour marbling etc etc. Putting them in stressful cramped conditions leaves the meat a darker red which in turn translates to less money for the former since nobody wants to eat a before grade when you can get A, AA, AAA (The various prime grades down south Smile ). Dairy cattle are tied up during the time when they are producing milk but often let out to pasture/feedlots when they are "off" cycle. unfortunately all livestock gets lumped into the being "abusive" category Sad . I agree that pigs and chickens are often cramped into unsuitable sized crates but that is what happens in a profit driven society. A farmer will have less damage to the animals from fighting with each other etc etc. It is actually similar to having bettas in little bowls...they can live in there but they would be happier in larger living quarters.

As far as the movement for "natural" meat... Myself and my family farm whole heartedly support NOT using hormones to boost an animals productivity and enhance their genetic potential. why would we when our customers pay premiums for truly natural meat? we feed only grain and forages that are of good quality and are actually planning on implementing an Omega program to allow further marketablility of our product. So when it comes to growth and feeding I am all for natural Very Happy . My problem with what is defined as natural is that some people have it in their heads that antibiotics are bad? Rolling Eyes Evil or Very Mad Sad not trying to offend anyone but that is a totally ignorant outlook. if you are sick would you not get medicine? meds are not used in cattle if not necessary...again without the need for them they don't benefit the animal or producer in any way? its just money down the drain. I think everyone would agree that if your fish needs treatment it is in the ANIMALS best interest to be treated?

just my 2 cents Smile
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Mobern
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Joined: 11 Feb 2005

PostPosted: 2005.04.02(Sat)15:31    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am a vegetarian. I really am against all the cruelty that animals are treated with in slaughter houses. Some slaughter houses house animals in tiny crates their whole lives.... Then animal testing abuses LIVE animals as any measures are used to "make our lives safer".... yeah right....

I really think that animals should be treated less horribly on a whole because they never really did anything wrong and some people just decided that to make more money, animals had to suffer more so the animals got the worse end of it I guess. Its really sad though because the more I find out about everything that is done to harm animals the more lowly I feel of humans. If you think about it we are pretty destructive of everything
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Steve Hampton
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Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Location: Jacksonville, FL

PostPosted: 2005.04.02(Sat)16:52    Post subject: Re: A Humane Issue Reply with quote

Mobern wrote:

I just wanted to see what people though about animal abuse in general and what some of you did in your own lives that helped or hurt all the animals in the world today...


I love my pets. We have a rescued Greyhound, 4 cats, 6 snakes, about 15 fish tanks and each animal in our captivity we treat with care and concern.

I like to Fish and in the past I would often go Hunting. I see no conflict between hunting and fishing and keeping pets. Sorry, but I don't feel any reason for guilt. I spent lots of time on a farm while growing up, my parents still live on a 600 acre farm in Virginia, and so raising livestock and eating them hasn't been an issue. Frankly I see this general attitude of "we shouldn't eat animals because we don't need to eat meat" as a product of a class of people that never had to struggle just to provide enough food for the table. Being a Vegan is a luxury. Growing up 50 or more years ago as a Vegan you may have starved. I know when I was young it wouldn't have been an option, we simply didn't have the means to omit meat from our diet. We weren't cruel, just poor. Today I could certainly afford to be a vegetarian if I want to do so...but why? I like meat. Raising animals to feed people isn't in any way shape or form a type of cruelty in my core beliefs. My core beliefs are also that captive animals should be afforded the best care possible. I personally can't understand the thought process that implies animals are equal to humans...it literally boggles my mind. I love animals, but they are animals. I am a compassionate and caring pet owner but would not hesitate to kill an animal that was threating the safety of another human. And I would never considering using deadly force to stop a human from hurting an animal. I'd report and help prosecute someone for animal cruelty, but never would I use extreme force to stop the cruelty.

It's about time to light the grill and throw on some steaks and ponder this issue over a wonder dinner. I never take this debate lightly. It shows up repeatedly with the same sounding ring each time. "We don't need to eat meat, it's cruel the way animals are treated". Blah. Choosing to become a Vegan is a personal decision I fully respect and I admire anyone with strong beliefs and convictions. Most true Vegans I've meet have been extremely respectful of others beliefs and never seem to pontificate their views and make implied condemnations of the meat eaters of the world. I love humans for their potential and ability to reason and change and do good for others...never make the mistake of believing an animal is capable of any of those issues. Humans can be cruel, animals can't. Humans can change from bad to good. Animals are just animals...they kill for survival, they kill to eat when hungry, and some kill for no apparent reason at the time of the killing...it's not cruel, it just is the way of an animal without a conscience.
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Destany
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Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Location: Missouri

PostPosted: 2005.04.02(Sat)17:48    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way I see it, different animals have different functions in our society and to me, personally. Maybe that's not too touchy feely or terribly enlightened, but the bottom line is this: There are animals to love, animals to eat, and animals to perform functions to aid humanity.
I eat animals. I like them, they taste good. They taste good because my body was created to consume animal meat. As a matter of fact, the way we're shaped and our bigger brains can be contributed almost entirely to the fact that we eat meat. I'm not going to deny my body - or my childrens bodies- something that they require to be healthy and fit and function properly. These animals are created by humans for humans. If we didn't grow them, inseminate them, incubate them, feed them, house them in the first place they wouldn't be here. I'm not saying I approve of the way they're treated or the conditions they have to live in, but again, it's not going to stop me from eating meat because that, frankly, is something my body needs.
Now, animals I keep as pets are an entirely different story. We're talking not of a need, but an elective and concious choice. I may not be able to help what my body what built to consume, but I can control the animals that come into my care. And therefore, I try to do the best by them that I can, and I believe that any human that chooses to take care of an animal has taken a responsibility, not unlike parenting, where you are responsible for the life, health, and happiness of another living creature. I take that very seriously.
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Mobern
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Joined: 11 Feb 2005

PostPosted: 2005.04.02(Sat)19:19    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't get me wrong. I think that the food chain is great. Humans are meant to eat meat. Animals kill for their own food just as we kill for ours. But to eat the meat of a cow who was caged its entire life in a crate that it couldn't turn around in is in my opinion wrong. I would eat a deer that I shot with a gun if I was out camping and I wanted a nice fresh something for dinner. But I refuse to eat meat thats from an animal that suffered its entire life. I agree that animals are lower than human beings. I believe that they are lesser than us but we don't need to continue with this Holocaust that is between humans and animals. All the most horrible events in the worlds including slavery and the Holocaust were started when some people thought of others as lesser and not equal. Now I'm not saying to embrace animals as our equals but I'm saying that animals should not be harmed and injected with hormones and forced to eat their own feces just because we want to eat something that we think is delicious.
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FishyMitch
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Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: 2005.04.03(Sun)14:15    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know about the rest of you but I defenetly get a very big 'animal farm' vibe from theese posts.

as for me I think it is fine if animals ar kept in cages as long as they are let out for atleast 5 hours a week and that they are not walking,hopping,flying or swimming in their own filth it's shocking how people treat animals as if they are beneath us!

Exclamation OK I'm very animal farm here Exclamation

but like the poor poor chicken that are getting feed themselves in reconstituded pellets in one foot wide cages and then selling their eggs for very little.

I remember when I was in florida for christmas when we met a waiter who had a day-job at disney land he told us that they took the meat out of the disgarded burgers and hotdogs and sold them to the animal feed companies Exclamation

we told him thats exactly how mad cow desiese started in britain and it could definatley happen there. The waiter then said he had to make a few phone calls...
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