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LFS information not meshing with yours
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number6
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Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Location: Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: 2005.04.01(Fri)15:47    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its been an energetic and valid discussion... its wasn't just comments from you... right fome? LOL
household cleaner... Yeah thats going to keep things civil... haha.
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brattygratty
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Joined: 28 Feb 2005

PostPosted: 2005.04.01(Fri)15:54    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tara, I have read over and over that doing more than a 50% water change over and over again only kills off the good bacteria that you need in a tank. So you are doing 90% water changes because the tank never cycled? And you are constantly adding and removing fish as they are feeders, so you are comparing a constantly revolving tank to one that will become more stable. I understand what everyone is saying about how humane it is to do a fishless cycle, but I can also tell you that not everyone believes that is the best way to go, as I have also read about people not doing fishless cycles properly and then putting fish in just when the ammonia and/or nitrite levels are peaking. To whoever said they cycled in 2 weeks doing fishless should check their levels again, cause the last time I looked it took nature a while to do what she has to do. And everyone is missing my point, HELP DON'T JUDGE. I don't appreciate being called a murderer because I choose to do a fish cycle and am taking information from a lfs that has years of experience in a small community and is still running. If this forum isn't to help and only to tell others what we are doing wrong then I guess it's time I find one that is out there to help me not judge my mistakes and make me feel inferior.
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TheVillageIdiot
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Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Location: Roswell, GA

PostPosted: 2005.04.01(Fri)15:57    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's always a good idea to remember that the owners of your lfs make money off selling fish to you... I.e., giving you advice about fishless cycling represents a conflict of interest for them because they make money if you don't fishless cycle... so, imo, find a new lfs as there are plenty of good ones w/ staff that don't put making 10bucks today over the health of the fish...
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Destany
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Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Location: Missouri

PostPosted: 2005.04.01(Fri)16:35    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry if you feel like everyone is beating up on you, but you are refusing to see anyone elses point. Telling you that a fish cycle is bad for your fish IS helping you, it's just not what you want to hear.
I certainly am not judging you, I did do a fish cycle back when I got my 10g tank a year ago. And all the tanks I had as a kid. I'm just wishing now I hadn't done it that way.
There is still another option besides fishless and fish cycling, if you have access to an established tank you can take some biofilm from that and put it in your tank. It's what I did with my other three tanks and it worked perfectly. I still don't know why lfs' aren't selling this stuff, they could make a lot of money off of something they normally throw away. But then again, they would lose money from the fish they won't be replacing later on.
Anyway, even if you feel that a fish cycle is the best way to go and everyone here is wrong, will you atleast consider that there may be hardier fish than the ones you have to do it with?
Another note about fish stores... There used to be a really cool fish store in my hometown, they wouldn't sell you a fish without testing your water first and making sure your tank was big enough. The place was highly regarded by all of the serious fishkeepers in town. But the old guy just wasn't doing enough business and the newcomers to the hobby who wanted instant gratification and didn't understand ammonia/nitrite cycling were offended that their water wasn't "good enough". They thought the old guy was a looney. So he conceded. Now he'll sell any fish to anyone, no questions asked. The service has gone way down hill and you'd be hardpressed to find an employee who actually knows what they're talking about. This was a guy trying to do the right thing. But he has a mortgage and a family to support.
The mindset of the consumers is what needs to change in order for fish stores to meet their standards. THAT'S what the people here are trying to do.
Sorry for the long post, I wish you all the luck with your fishies and hope they all come out OK.
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number6
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Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Location: Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: 2005.04.01(Fri)16:41    Post subject: Reply with quote

brattygratty wrote:
Tara, I have read over and over that doing more than a 50% water change over and over again only kills off the good bacteria that you need in a tank.
That'd be a total myth...

brattygratty wrote:
So you are doing 90% water changes because the tank never cycled?
a tank at 90% wc will still cycle.

brattygratty wrote:
I understand what everyone is saying about how humane it is to do a fishless cycle, but I can also tell you that not everyone believes that is the best way to go, .
Yeah, I am one, but noticce I never post against the fishless cycle fans? It is the safest way for someone who doesn't have the full expertise to know the cycle process fully.

brattygratty wrote:
To whoever said they cycled in 2 weeks doing fishless should check their levels again,
Really, I can do a fishless cycle in a day or two...
HELP DON'T JUDGE... hmmmn, are you not judging the quality of the responses you've been getting? Wink
I mean, its not easy. On this thread,
http://www.aquahobby.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=20261
I tried to convey a sense of urgency as in my direct and personal experience with Discus shipments coming in to a LFS they did what this poster did and had dead Discus in under a week... no offense to Discuszeke but just a few weeks ago he was asking for help on bare bottom vs other setups for Discus, then he's arguing that my dire predictions won't come true and called me harsh...
how on earth was I to say get it out of that tank right now? a bucket would be more likely to keep that fish alive IME...

everyone has different ways of talking and very different levels of knowledge in this hobby.

Perhaps, you might want to really look at your attitude, see who is judging who, and then think about which path is the wisest one for someone new to this game....
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haname
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Joined: 11 Jun 2003
Location: Phoenix, Arizona USA

PostPosted: 2005.04.01(Fri)17:20    Post subject: Reply with quote

brattygratty wrote:
Tara, I have read over and over that doing more than a 50% water change over and over again only kills off the good bacteria that you need in a tank.


Doing water changes doesn't kill bacteria. The nitrifying bacteria are attached to surfaces in the tank, and biofilm will grow in the tank even if you change 100% of the water every day. This is why chlorine and chloramines are added to water supply systems -- because if there is water running through pipes, there will be bacteria growth on those pipes and that will contaminate the water.


Quote:
you are constantly adding and removing fish as they are feeders, so you are comparing a constantly revolving tank to one that will become more stable.


Adding and removing fish has nothing to do with it. In a natural environment fish populations are in constant flux, and there is continual flow of fresh water (in streams anyway). There is still bacteria adhering to the surfaces (that's why the rocks in the creek are slippery).

Quote:
I understand what everyone is saying about how humane it is to do a fishless cycle, but I can also tell you that not everyone believes that is the best way to go, as I have also read about people not doing fishless cycles properly and then putting fish in just when the ammonia and/or nitrite levels are peaking.


The point is to cycle the tank before adding the fish, so adding fish to a system that has high amounts of ammonia or nitrite defeats the purpose. I can't imagine anyone deliberately fishless cycling who would then go and add fish at the worst possible time.

Quote:
To whoever said they cycled in 2 weeks doing fishless should check their levels again, cause the last time I looked it took nature a while to do what she has to do.


It can be done in 2 weeks, but the conditions have to be right. Ideally, some source of bacteria would be available to hasten the process.

Quote:
And everyone is missing my point, HELP DON'T JUDGE. I don't appreciate being called a murderer because I choose to do a fish cycle and am taking information from a lfs that has years of experience in a small community and is still running. If this forum isn't to help and only to tell others what we are doing wrong then I guess it's time I find one that is out there to help me not judge my mistakes and make me feel inferior.


Since you have a good relationship with your fish store, maybe you can get some biofilm from them. That can instantly cycle your tank, and you won't have to worry about hassling through the cycle. Not all fish stores are willing to share, or they don't understand what and where the biofilm is, and give you fish poop instead of biofilm. But if you can get some, your problem is solved.

Also I wouldn't say you are a murderer. My concern is simply that your fish are healthy so that you can enjoy them. You have fish because you wanted healthy, living fish swimming around in a beautiful tank for your enjoyment.

The way it usually goes, is people get home with a tank and fish, and everything "is fine" and then suddenly you start having to deal with fish illness and death, if you have fish that are more delicate than something like a feeder goldfish. You could bypass all of that by either fishless cycling, or staying on top of water quality during the cycle (as I explained in my previous post), or by doing a large water change then adding living bacteria to colonize your tank.

So we are trying to help. It's up to you do decide what you're going to do with the information. We want you to be successful, just as you do.
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Rossco
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Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: 2005.04.01(Fri)20:25    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="fiffy"] Would you knowingly put your children in an unsafe enviroment? I don't think you would, though your lfs owner apperantly would Razz


I agree that this is getting ridiculous. You are comparing fish to children!!!
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Nova_C
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Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Location: Calgary, AB

PostPosted: 2005.04.01(Fri)23:49    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many people treat their cats or dogs as children. I think its ridiculous myself, but I don't tell them that. Wink

Anyway, -I- was the person who did a cycle in two and a half weeks and its interesting how you simply say it can't be done when you've never done one (at least, that's the impression I've gotten). Anyway, I used a small handful of substrate from a cycled tank to augment the process - a common practice. Don't assume that I'm incompetant simply because you disagree with my methods. Anyway, I've tried to keep my responses helpful and nonthreatening, but Destany was right insofar as you accusing us of being judgmental and not helpful when all we're saying is there are better ways to cycle a tank.

Quote:
On all the forums I've read you blame "unknowledgable" clerks as the reason that people are sold certain fish or given "wrong" knowledge, but maybe it's just that people do things differently, not necessarily "wrong".


This was your original post. In it is not a question, but an opinion that others disagreed with (Given the context). They spoke their minds with few being abrasive about it. Frankly, the most judgement I see is from you telling us that our experiences and opinions are invalidated by your differing mindset. The people here have a stake in promoting good fish keeping and as far as I can tell, you just wanted people to nod and agree with you.
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brattygratty
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Joined: 28 Feb 2005

PostPosted: 2005.04.02(Sat)17:30    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have never said that any of you are wrong, and I have never said that doing a fishless cycle was bad, nor am I saying the other way. I wasn't particularily happy that my husband came home with these guys, but I am now having to deal with the fact that I have them. I am not making judgements, I've just seen too many times in this forum of people jumping down others backs because they aren't doing things the way they think they should. To all of you who have given me advice on how to get my fish through this I thank you very much as this is why I'm on these forums, to those of you who's only response is "take them back" without giving any advice on what to do now that I've got them, that's not really gonna happen so maybe you could come up with something that will help instead of making me feel like I am the absolute worst person in the entire world. I get that some of you care for your fish like you would your children, but I don't treat my other pets like my kids and my fish won't be either. (Though my pets are treated well.) Yes I do want to enjoy them and will do what ever I can to get them through this cycle, but won't be taking time off work if one of them dies.
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Taratron
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Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Location: AZ

PostPosted: 2005.04.02(Sat)20:25    Post subject: Reply with quote

We've offered other solutions save "take them back." It's your call if you listen to the LFS. After all, none of us here have anything to gain or lose if your fish keel over tonight. The LFS does.

But it is your call.
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