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LFS information not meshing with yours
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Fome
Regulars


Joined: 21 Nov 2004

PostPosted: 2005.03.31(Thu)20:10    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go get some household cleaner, pour it in your eyes and down your throat. Feel good? Well, chances are if you enjoyed that then so will your fish (probably not though). Don't really do it, just illustrating a point.

Anyways, fish have needs which need to be met. If you cannot meet those needs then you should buy a different kind of fish or drop the hobby altogether.

When I first started I bought 4 feeder goldfish to "prepare" my tank as the LFS called it. 1 lived. I honestly wish I could have done that over again with a fishless cycling method or a silent cycle.

It's not just about the insignificant lives of your stupid little pets. It's about you as a higher form of intelligence, willfully neglecting the needs of something you are voluntarily taking care of. Understand that concept and learn what it means to truly be a fishkeeper.
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brattygratty
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Joined: 28 Feb 2005

PostPosted: 2005.03.31(Thu)20:16    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure that I would be monitoring my ammonia levels, and then nitrite levels and so on. I wasn't trying to say that doing a fishless cycle or a fish cycle was either good or bad, I just see it as a preference. Yes, it may be more labour intensive to do it with fish, and yes unfortunately I may lose a fish or two, but I've also had cats that have "disappeared" due to wild animals or cars and I mourned them also, but don't believe it fair to the cats to keep them in the house when they are happier being indoor/outdoor animals. I will do everything possible to keep my fish happy and healthy but I think to compare fish to children is taking it a bit far as I wouldn't leave my children home all day to fend for themselves while I'm at work, yet we do it with dogs and cats and fish. The only point I was trying to make is that some people are too quick to "jump all over" people not doing things "their way" and I think that is really unfair. Giving advice to those who already have the fish is better than telling them to take them back and do a fishless cycle as most won't take them back and still won't have the correct information.
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LittleMousling
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Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Location: WNY, USA

PostPosted: 2005.03.31(Thu)20:24    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having worked at a fish store ...

We only recommended fish cycling rather than fishless because few (well, no) customers who came in and said they had a new tank were even willing to consider fishless.
It's not always that the owner or worker doesn't care; generally they're trying the best they can, but every customer wants instant satisfaction and would rather murder some fish than wait a few weeks. I mean, the horror! A few weeks of an empty tank, after - geez - years and years and years of not having that tank at all! Obviously when presented with the need for a little patience or the life of a few fish, anyone would choose the latter. Rolling Eyes
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Destany
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Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Location: Missouri

PostPosted: 2005.03.31(Thu)20:29    Post subject: Reply with quote

We all learn as we go along, and find out down the road that there are better ways of doing something than we first thought. It's called hindsight, and everyone has their own learning experiences. Just now, I'm wishing I had researched how to rewire a flourescent lamp before I ruined my fixture, but now I know better. Confused
10 years ago it was acceptable to leave kids at home all day, now we know it's best to put them in daycare. 5 years ago it was common in my hometown to leave kids in the car while you run in and get a soda or something. Then a kid gets killed and you won't find ANYONE willing to do that anymore.
I would never compare my fish or my dog or cat to my own children, that is taking it far I'll grant you. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't do everything for my pets and take care of them the best I possibly can. It's not about what's right or wrong thinking, it's about knowing better.
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Nova_C
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Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Location: Calgary, AB

PostPosted: 2005.03.31(Thu)20:33    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your point is very valid, as fish keeping is a.....spontaneous hobby far too often. Perhaps what many people who frequent these forums want is for people to research as much as possible about fish care before even buying the equipment, let alone the fish. Going back to my dog/cat analogy, how many people buy one of these animals with no clue as to how to care for them? Then, when the animal dies or gets sick as a result of their lack of knowledge, how often do people go "Oh, that's okay. Just do better next time."? Or even, "Well, just keep trying and lets hope your dog or cat will be okay in the long run."? Usually, the animal is taken from them if ANY kind of mistreatment is found. Fish die so often from negligence and ignorance and yet no one cares. That's the issue that I find objectionable. They are living creatures with the same needs as any pet. Simply because most people don't anthropomorphise them does not make their suffering any less tragic.

So when it comes down to it, the opinion "Take your fish back and do a fishless cycle" is valid. The fact that most people won't is the tragedy here, not the lack of patience from a few people who truly love their pet, even if their abrasivness isn't helpful.
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OscarSam
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Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Location: British Columbia Canada

PostPosted: 2005.03.31(Thu)21:09    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyways Bratty keep a close eye on those ammonia and nitrite levels, if they get to high do a 10 or 15% water change to dilute the toxins.
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k_the_c
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Joined: 01 Nov 2004

PostPosted: 2005.04.01(Fri)0:29    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read this thread.
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Taratron
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Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Location: AZ

PostPosted: 2005.04.01(Fri)5:14    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read an article recently that labels most societies in the modern era as throwaway societies. Meaning that overall, people have excess of some things. Not food, to be sure, but even in Phoenix in the more affluent parts of town, you can see stray dogs and cats running wild. I do not think at all that they are "wild and free," in other words, happy. Free to catch their own dinner, free to catch disease, to be tortured by people, hit by cars. Free to be eaten by local wildlife, to have as many kittens and puppies as their starving bodies would allow. Would you say that homeless people are happy because they are free?

If you have dogs or cats that roam outside your house; be happy that you don't live in Phoenix, or the outskirts where people shoot strays to prevent more population problems. Be happy your "stray" doesn't find its way to our zoo, where many people leave their unwanted pets because gods know that cats and dogs fit in PERFECTLY with lions and giraffes; the sheer number of our dropoffs is enough that the no-kill shelters run out of room for our new "pets."

Back on topic with the fish: in this day and age, there is no reason other than ignorance at first, and then laziness after knowledge, to cycle with fish. Get to a good lfs and get some biofilm; hit up other fishkeepers in your area. Or water change, water change, water change, and know that despite your best efforts, you are in essence making your fish live in toxic waters, and you will lose them far earlier than any other fish you bring home, disease aside. People tend to remember vague successes when they speak of never fishless cycling as a child, instead of remembering the dead fish parents scooped out--or perhaps the kids never saw the fish at all. That said, water companies have also changed water conditions a LOT since many of us were youths. It used to be thought that only bad girls got pregnant out of wedlock some few decades back; it was also thought that only bad girls got attacked, sexually assaulted, and pregnant. It was thought wrong.

As well, the idea that fishless cycling is akin to simply releasing the fish back into the wild because the "little darlings" would like it better out there is ridiculous. A good majority of fish on the market today are captive raised, but many cats, cichlids, and nonlivebearers are wild caught animals. It's a rare cardinal tetra or rainbow shark or clown loach that was hatched and raised in capitivity. Most of these fish came from wild waters, and I don't think that any of us can read the minds of the fish to see if they are happier now, or when they were free. Free again to be eaten, to starve, etc. Not to mention the ecological disasters that happen from people releasing their captive fish into nonnative waters.

On a final note, we have a 100 gallon tub at the zoo filled with common feeder goldfish. This tank gets a 90% water change daily, fed once a day, and the mortality rate is surprising low; perhaps one or two fish a day, and when there are over 100 goldies in there, that's not bad. Even if these are feeder animals, destined to die in the jaws of snapping turtles, the time of life they spend with me will not be full of suffering, or ammonia burns, or starvation. It's a personal choice I made a long time ago; I may not be able to stop all abuse of animals, but those around me, I can. It is a self imposed thought I have as a responsible animal keeper.

And for those of you who say this is the way the world turns: letting domestic animals run free, letting your cats and dogs loose to be hit by cars, to starve, to pick up disease or never come home at all, releasing captive fish into your native streams and ponds for they will be happier somewhere else, this is the way the world turns, it's time it turns the other way.
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number6
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Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Location: Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: 2005.04.01(Fri)9:59    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is rare that these topics can go on long and still be civil. Thanks to everyone so far.

Only a couple of comments are pushing it... right Tara? Wink LOL

Keep it coming, but lets try and keep it to fish related please and thank you!
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Taratron
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Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Location: AZ

PostPosted: 2005.04.01(Fri)15:09    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awww, but Discus Man, I've been so well behaved! Can I not break character just a little? Very Happy
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