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LFS information not meshing with yours
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brattygratty
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Joined: 28 Feb 2005

PostPosted: 2005.03.31(Thu)16:48    Post subject: LFS information not meshing with yours Reply with quote

My lfs is a private store and the owners run the place, and have been in business here for about 15 years. They told my husband that you could have fish in the tank right away, and that you "might" lose a fish or two. They also gave him something called Prime for chlorine, chloramine and ammonia, as well as detoxifying nitrite and nitrate and it also provides slime coat. We have a 20g tank and the store owner sold my husband 3 black neon tetras, 2 black skirted tetras and 3 black phantom tetras for cycling the tank. On all the forums I've read you blame "unknowledgable" clerks as the reason that people are sold certain fish or given "wrong" knowledge, but maybe it's just that people do things differently, not necessarily "wrong". Confused
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Mogwai
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Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Location: Bristol, UK

PostPosted: 2005.03.31(Thu)17:00    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depends how you distinguish 'differently' from 'wrong' - I personally believe that letting fish swim in ammonia and suffer gill burns and a slow painful death is wrong - when there is an alternative. However many people are not so sentimental about fish - such as yourselves, you are happy to 'lose' some fish. Of course the LFS may recommend you do something differently - when the tetras die, you'll be going back there for more. That's more money for them. You might find the articles on fishless cycling interesting - I have cycled four tanks and not lost any fish using this method. Some people on this site do cycle with fish, but you'll find that the tetras you have are probably the worst fish in terms of hardiness for tank cycling. I much prefered my empty tanks for a couple of weeks rather than coming down to more fish deaths each day, but if that doesn't bother you, then fine. Go with the 'different' way. I noticed on your profile you have a plec in that tank as well - is that a common plec? No doubt they told you he'd 'only grow to the size of the tank' too! Rolling Eyes
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Destany
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Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Location: Missouri

PostPosted: 2005.03.31(Thu)17:48    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some people are just determined to do things the way they want and don't think much of the consequenses to others, even if they are "only fish". I can't tell you how many times I've heard THAT lame excuse!
Personally, I've never fishless cycled. The 10g I got last year I'd never heard of it. So I put a gourami in it (it's actually still alive but I don't expect it to live as long as it probably would have). For all of my other tanks I was fortunate enough to have a great fish store here in town that gave me some biofilm.
There are good pet stores out there that will do this, but you'll always have your ones that insist they're "only fish".
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T5Chris
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Joined: 23 Jan 2004

PostPosted: 2005.03.31(Thu)17:53    Post subject: Reply with quote

Take it from a guy with 17 years experience dealing with fish store owners...they might be knowledgeable, but they're greedy businessmen.

They often tell you to do cycling with fish because they're going to die more, and the tank is going to have more problems. Why? Because the next day you'll be coming back to buy more fish and more supplies like the bottled conditioners. When that doesn't work and you become even more desperate, they'll start suggesting it's your filter that needs upgrading or other garbage.

Same reason why they don't tell beginners with 10 gallon tanks not to buy Bala sharks. Because they know in a few months, those guys will be back asking to buy a bigger tank and bigger filter.

If you refuse to accept that they give poor advice, that's your problem. But don't say we didn't warn you.
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Rossco
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Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: 2005.03.31(Thu)18:55    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally think that cycling with fish is not something that should be avoided. Such things as "cycle" or water/filter pads from established tanks drastically increases the process. I believe that you are probably right when saying that the LFS owners are just trying to sell you more fish. I should tread lightly on this but... when you think about it, they really are just fish. They do not have brains that can comprehend what is really happening. They rely on instincts, when to feed, sleep or play. But I can see the cruelty in just dumping a bunch into an uncycled tank and hoping none will die. I have never used fishless cycling but steps like using "cycle" or borrowing water/filter pads from other tanks should be used.
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fiffy
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Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Location: NJ

PostPosted: 2005.03.31(Thu)19:32    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a question? How much did all these suplies cost? It seems that he sold you a lot of things that you would not have needed if you cycled your tank. Furthermore, I find that tetra's are especially sensative to amonia, and durreing your cycle you need amonia. Without it, (like useing chemicals to get rid of them) your bacteria will have nothing to feed on. Without that, they won't establish and then your tank whcih may seemed like it had been cycled perfectly with the chemicals will go WAY out of wack when you introduce fish. However, I have seen many products that claim they make your water safe for fish instantly. I have even tried one, though I didn't put fish in right away. It seemed to help cycle faster (but probably more so becaue I bought some bacteria for the water). So in conclusion, your tank is your home for your fish. Fish are animals just as much as dogs and cats and even people. Would you knowingly put your children in an unsafe enviroment? I don't think you would, though your lfs owner apperantly would Razz And always remember, people will tell you whatever they think will get you to spend more money. Wink
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haname
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Joined: 11 Jun 2003
Location: Phoenix, Arizona USA

PostPosted: 2005.03.31(Thu)19:34    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is possible to safely and comfortably get fish through the cycling process, but it is more expensive and labor-intensive.

Since you have fish in your tank, you need to be able to do this the best you can. The main problem the fish are going to have initially, is ammonia. Prime at the standard dose removes .6 mg/l of ammonia. By way of comparison, AmQuel Plus removes at least 1.2 mg/l and 2.0 mg/l of nitrite per standard dose.

Test daily for ammonia with a salycilate ammonia test kit. If there is any ammonia present, detoxify with your Prime. If there is more than .6 ppm of ammonia, you will need to change out some water to dilute the ammonia to .6 ppm or less. So for example, if you have 1.2 ppm of ammonia, you will need to do a 50% water change, and add enough prime to the new water to treat the full volume of your tank (not just the change water.) You can dose your tank once per day if necessary. If your ammonia is not past .6 ppm, you can just dose with Prime without changing water.

After you have no more ammonia readings, you will need to start testing for nitrite and do the process the same way. I don't know how much nitrite Prime removes though, it doesn't say on their info sheet or FAQ,

Now of course you might opt not to bother with any of this, but your fish would be much healthier in the long run if you protect them from these harmful nitrogen waste products.
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~Haname
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OscarSam
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Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Location: British Columbia Canada

PostPosted: 2005.03.31(Thu)19:40    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh brother...

This argument is getting ridiculous, if you're so worried about the fish then return them to the wild and stop keeping fish altogether. After all how dare we keep these little darlings held captive against their will in the first place. I am currently in the middle of cycling my 55 with feeder goldfish and I haven't lost a single fish to a "slow and painful death" , not only that but they seem quite happy and are eating and swimming regularly.
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Nova_C
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Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Location: Calgary, AB

PostPosted: 2005.03.31(Thu)19:57    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love that term "Swimming happily". Anyway, Oscar, ammonia damage can show up on the exterior with enough ammonia, but the majority of it happens on the inside of the gills. Also, a fish's life is shortened by keeping it in mildly toxic water.

Here's the thing. What would constitute mistreatment to a dog or cat? I wonder if you'd be so forgiving if a beautiful Labrador or Siamese was forced to live in a garage with a toxic level of monoxide in it. Why are fish so less deserving of our care and respect? People are arrested every now and then for making an animal live in its own piss and $#!+. Why is it okay to do it to fish?

My cycle was weird as I never saw the ammonia slowly drop when I fishless cycled. It stayed at around 3ppm for a couple weeks then disappeared in a couple days. The thing about fishless cycling is not only proper respect for the animals you're caring for, but speed. A cycle with fish can take over two months. I did mine in two and a half weeks. So if you're going to wait until your tank is cycled to put in the expensive fish that you want, then you can do it much faster with a fishless cycle. All it takes is a little research.
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55g:
3 x Silvertip Tetra 1" (?)
2 x Red Bellied Piranha 4"
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haname
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Joined: 11 Jun 2003
Location: Phoenix, Arizona USA

PostPosted: 2005.03.31(Thu)20:03    Post subject: Reply with quote

OscarSam wrote:
Oh brother...

This argument is getting ridiculous, if you're so worried about the fish then return them to the wild and stop keeping fish altogether. After all how dare we keep these little darlings held captive against their will in the first place.


This board is about helping aquarists move from being a 'fish haver' to a 'fish keeper.' Some of us want to keep fish healthy and well, by providing the best possible conditions for them in the captive state, so we can enjoy them in our homes and observe as close to their natural behavior as possible in the captive state. If that is offensive or stupid in your opinion, you probably aren't on the right forum.

Quote:
I am currently in the middle of cycling my 55 with feeder goldfish and I haven't lost a single fish to a "slow and painful death" , not only that but they seem quite happy and are eating and swimming regularly.


In the old days, zoos used to keep gorillas in small cages. They didn't die right away, and they also might have seemed quite happy to some people, eating regularly and moving around in their little cells. But today, zoos try to provide better, more natural conditions for the animals. The concept of fish-keeping is like that... trying to provide better conditions.

Before the nitrogen is established, the fish literally are swimming in their own waste. This may not be a big deal to you until you go into some out-of the way public restroom at a rest stop somewhere that doesn't get cleaned. It's disgusting, and nobody would want to live like that. I can't imagine that your bedroom is filled with your urine and feces. Sheesh, they at least cleaned the zoo cages on a regular basis. Detoxifying the nitrogen compounds and changing water while the cycle is getting established is simply cleaning out the chemical waste until the natural processes can take care of it.

Feeder goldfish are able to withstand conditions that tetras are not. Some fish are more able to survive the cycling process. Black neons are not among the hardy types of fish that are appropriate for cycling a new tank. So just because your feeder goldfish, which you most likely plan to feed to some fish at some point, are 'doing fine' doesn't mean brattygratty's black neons will also 'do fine' during the rigors of the ammonia and nitrite spikes to come.
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~Haname
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