Aquarium & Tropical Fish Site

This repository is for research only. New discussions take place in our current Tropical Fish Forum.

Archivarium 2004
Repository of our 2003/2004 Topics
 
  HelpHelp   Search BoardSearch Board   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups 
 ProfileProfile   Check your private messagesCheck your private messages   Log inLog in   RegisterRegister 
Head and Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE)
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
 Forum Index > Marine Fishes and Corals  Search Board
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
KDodds
Advisors


Joined: 05 Apr 2005
Location: Suffern, NY

PostPosted: 2005.04.12(Tue)11:10    Post subject: Reply with quote

@-McP wrote:
what I've gathered that everyone is saying is that carbon and skimming have been used when HLLE is present and when it isnt. this to me would say that it isnt a main factor but I also am no expert...far from it Wink


Doesn't take an expert, does it? Wink See my post on TR regarding Cause and Effect in our tanks. This is a real issue that goes well beyond this thread and specific instance. Verifying occurences/results through repeatable procedures/experiments is the BASIS for science, theory formulation, and hypothesis proving Anything less can not be accepted as "fact".
_________________
Kieron Dodds
Inside Aquatics
www.insideaquatics.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
MarkLehr
Moderators


Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Location: Taylorsville, KY

PostPosted: 2005.04.20(Wed)20:22    Post subject: Reply with quote

Filtering thru the disagreement, and only looking at the observations and references observed in this thread, I think this is an interesting look at how complicated HLLE can be. I have never used carbon in my aquariums. However, I have had several cases of HLLE over the years. I had never had a reversal, until my recent experience with my Coral Beauty Angel, as mentioned at the begging of this thread.

My instict on HLLE is that there are certain beneficial trace elements in our water which are removed by activate carbon. These trace elements would have some unknown effect on fish health, and the absence thereof could result in HLLE, unless the fish was receiving the equivalent benefit from another source, such as from its diet. The same fish may also lack the proper diet and develop HLLE in an aquarium without activate carbon. Hence, using carbon increases the likelyhood of developing HLLE, but its use does not guarantee HLLE because diet can also support the fish's needs. This is all my best educated guess, from years of observation of my tanks, my readings, and personal discussions with advanced hobbyists.
This theory seems to support all of the observations mentioned in this thread.

I would like to comment on the debate above. It was difficult to read, as I have respect for each of the hobbyists above. Regardless of your personal willingness to use the word "expert", I will not hesitate to call each of you an expert in this hobby. Your years of experiences and devotion to education have far surpassed any degree you would have received. You're experience is in fact better than a degree, because you are dealing with real life situations on a daily basis, and not just book smarts.

I have not known any of you for an extended time. However, I have read your threads extensively and feel like I know you because of this. There has been a clear misunderstanding, because all 3 of you are standup individuals. This arguement shows what you all have in common, and that is a serious passion for improving the hobby.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
FloridaBoy
Advisors


Joined: 04 Jul 2004

PostPosted: 2005.04.20(Wed)20:46    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well thanks for your kind words my friend. I hate debating on forums, and more often than not choose to avoid it completely. HLLE has always been a controversial issue. I find your thoughts about trace elements very interesting.
Funny how this thread started with you and I chatting, and here we are again.
Based on my observations over the years, I suspect activated carbon, acting as it does on a molecular level, may somehow impact the slime coat of the fish (copper also does this) and as anyone knows, the slime coat is essential to the well being of the fish, including the sensitive areas of the face and lateral line. I should add here I do not suggest never using carbon; only limiting its use in marine systems (again, I refer readers to the articles I mentioned previously which support this line of thought). Although I am personally CONVINCED large volumes of fresh AC can in some cases trigger HLLE, I have no data on exactly how much AV is required to do this, and what correlation there may be to copper or the combination of the two. As anyone can clearly see from my original post; I have an open mind about the causes of HLLE. It is my sincere hope that perhaps others will lend their own observations and add them here in the future.
_________________
Keepin' marines happy for 25 years
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
KDodds
Advisors


Joined: 05 Apr 2005
Location: Suffern, NY

PostPosted: 2005.04.21(Thu)6:02    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now THERE there might be something. Depletion of certain elements might be an issue. In tanks where these are replenished through water changes or "dosing", however, you wouldn't notice anything. BUT, if the tank is only receiving very small water changes very infrequently, and the carbon is changed and in use constantly, you might have enough depletion of certain elements to cause an adverse effect. See, we can kind of agree. Wink There is a distinction between the two scenarios that is very important. Rather than say AC can be a cause, where it's clearly not, it can be said that, anecdotally, it's use may be a contributing factor if other variable conditions are also met. Wink
_________________
Kieron Dodds
Inside Aquatics
www.insideaquatics.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
FloridaBoy
Advisors


Joined: 04 Jul 2004

PostPosted: 2005.04.22(Fri)10:52    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm, in the cases whre I have seen carbon appear to trigger HLLE overnight, carbon was not in constant use. High grade activated carbon was only used for occasional water polishing and/or removal of copper in those scenarios. Still, perhaps TE's are involved, or the sudden removal of them by the AC, who knows.
At any rate I am personally convinced the AC was involved somehow, whether just a factor or directly or whatever else anyone may want to call it.
_________________
Keepin' marines happy for 25 years
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TheVillageIdiot
Regulars


Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Location: Roswell, GA

PostPosted: 2005.04.22(Fri)11:14    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's difficult given the number of variables present to really pinpoint the culprit or culprits...

the best way would be to have a pc hooked up to your system monitoring all water parameters 24/7 that you could access, but even that wouldn't tell you about the fish istelf, stress levels, what it's eating off the live rock, etc...
_________________
20g planted - 1.5 wpg - pea gravel/sand/laterite - DIY co2
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Taratron
Benefactors


Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Location: AZ

PostPosted: 2005.04.22(Fri)17:06    Post subject: Reply with quote

And now a new thought....are there any fish that are immune, or cannot catch HLLE? I've never seen a corydoras cat with this disease, but I do know that tangs and cichlids are infamous for it.
_________________
But if you tame me, then we shall need each other....You become responsible, forever, for what you have tamed.
~Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address MSN Messenger
KDodds
Advisors


Joined: 05 Apr 2005
Location: Suffern, NY

PostPosted: 2005.04.22(Fri)18:49    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a little different in FW since "Hole in Head" has been linked to pathogenic organisms. Whatever the case may be, yes, there are SW fih that rarely get HLLE. Blennies and Gobies, for example, Anthias, Hawkfish, Pseudochromis, Eels, Sharks and Rays, and so on. Most of the fish that are not especially susceptible, or never get it at all, or rarely, are confirmed carnivores. Even among Tangs, the Regal Tang is the least likely of all to come down with it, and, coincidentally or not, it's the only planktivorous Tang commonly available, Nasos are also less likely to contract it, but again, they are at least partially carnivorous. Think about that link. What's different? Why are specialized feeders like Tangs (algae) and Angels (algae/sponge) so much more likely to contract the condition? Wink
_________________
Kieron Dodds
Inside Aquatics
www.insideaquatics.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Display posts from previous:   
 Forum Index > Marine Fishes and Corals All times are GMT - 6 Hours Search Board
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
Jump to:  
  You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2008 phpBB Group

oF <=> oC in <=> cm G <=> L