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Head and Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE)
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Steve Hampton
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Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Location: Jacksonville, FL

PostPosted: 2005.04.10(Sun)18:05    Post subject: Reply with quote

FloridaBoy wrote:
it wasn't symptoms, it was full blown HLLE, triggered in less than 24 hours in a controlled setting with no change other than a large load of fresh carbon. That's not forum chit chat, that's personal experience.


This is very curious. If the only change in this single incident was leaving the lights off would you suggest the lights cause HLLE? Try as I may I simply can't see how you can make any assumption based on a single episode when there are so many experienced hobbyists using carbon with problems. What brand and type of carbon was used? Did you presoak the carbon before using? The other possibilities are many and so I just don't see how you can make a leap that carbon was responsible. I also don't see how you could know with certainty that the HLLE wasn't in latency and the visual manifestation simply coincided with the addition of carbon. Certainly this is anecdotally interesting but I can't see where you could have any degree of confidence in stating that carbon cause your case of HLLE. But, everyone is entitled to there opinions and those opinions can of course be rebutted.
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FloridaBoy
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PostPosted: 2005.04.10(Sun)19:14    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all my friend, I'm not the only one who has suggested that activated carbon could be linked to HLLE; do your own research and you will find many others who have reported this. This is hardly an issue of hard facts, and that is my point. There was a time when people were cut/bled to relieve sicknesses, and trickle filters were the best solution to filtration. I already proposed various factors which may trigger HLLE, including various stress factors we have yet to fully understand.
Second, I have not drawn any conclusions on the above; only listed a personal observation which I agree, was "curious." This is a forum for discussion (not rubuttals) and yet I am surprised how many closed minded "experts" we atttract, the kind of experts who are very eager to say "always" and "never" at the drop of a hat. Don't shoot the messenger. I don't put words in other folks mouths, that would strike of immaturity or rudeness. I think, and have said before, carbon should be used sparingly in marine systems; it adsorbs at the molecular level, which may interfere with the slime coat of the fish. Note, I did not say NEVER use it. Maybe that's why Terry Bartelme in his extensive research suggests one of the ways to gaurd against HLLE is to LIMIT THE USE OF ACTIVATED CARBON. Aww, heck maybe I'm wrong, but is it not YOU who are leaping and making the assumption that I am wrong?
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KDodds
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PostPosted: 2005.04.10(Sun)19:36    Post subject: Reply with quote

FloridaBoy wrote:
Okay, now you're saying skimming and carbon are NOT contributors to HLLE.
Again, just trying to clarify/follow your line of thought here.


You make it seem like I changed my mind mid-stream. Re-read what I originally wrote, I haven't said anything different since my initial response. Any misunderstanding was your own. I was quite clear.


FloridaBoy wrote:

KDodds wrote:
"You may have seen symptoms of HLLE the day after carbon was introduced, but it's doubtful it was the carbon. While it doesn't take as long as it does to cure, HLLE does take quite some time to develop, and a day would not be long enough for this to be the cause."


Wow, no disrespect intended here, but you must be some authority, you actually know what I saw better than I do myself! LOL... it wasn't symptoms, it was full blown HLLE, triggered in less than 24 hours in a controlled setting with no change other than a large load of fresh carbon. That's not forum chit chat, that's personal experience.


I really don't have time for this garbage. I did not say I knew what you saw, I said that it is DOUBTFUL that carbon was the cause of what you did see. If you're going to try to debate without any footing, at least don't make things up, obviously misunderstanding the very material you're quoting. Again, I was very clear here and I hope you can make it out. Let me restate: no matter what you saw, it's doubtful it was caused by carbon. I'm not doubting that you saw HLLE the day after you introduced carbon, but I am doubting it was the cause. There's a HUGE difference between EXPERIENCE and correlating data for cause and effect. Here, unless you repeated the incident, there is no correlation. Your assumptions are only that, assumptions, not proof, not even curious circumstance, since they have not been repeated. Indeed, for all intents and purposes, we can look at the myriad systems using carbon with fish that do not have and never have had HLLE and conclude that there must be some other point or points within your system, including the individual specimen itself, that has/have not been uncovered.


Quote:
Hey look, I've been tracking this issue for a long, long time, and it's always a pleasure to get new insights... thanks for your thoughts. I'm just glad when I hear new reports like Mark's, it's very good to hear a success story.


Perhaps then you should truck on over to RC where several threads have posted data and references suggesting that HLLE IS 100% diet related. That's not "forum chit-chat", but experimentation happening in public aquaria.
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KDodds
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PostPosted: 2005.04.10(Sun)19:45    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the subject of right/wrong, I would suggest that there are many instances and many variables in those instances where a system that is utilizing carbon may also have a fish in it with HLLE. From the opposing side, there are also many systems that are running carbon continuously that do not have and have not ever had an instance of HLLE. Scientifically thinking, this would point to a cause OTHER THAN carbon as a causative factor. While carbon may be a contributing factor in some cases, it is not a likely cause based solely on the FACT that it can be used continuously without producing HLLE. The same, however, can not be said of dietary deficiencies. Feed a Tang nothing but Brine Shrimp, and you'll get HLLE almost 100% of the time, that is, if it lives long enough.
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FloridaBoy
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PostPosted: 2005.04.10(Sun)20:01    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now you refer to my post/questions as... garbage.
Well, one thing this proves; you are even more rude than you are closed-minded. At any rate, best wishes for all your endeavors and for the second time, thanks for your insights... I think!
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Steve Hampton
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PostPosted: 2005.04.10(Sun)20:34    Post subject: Reply with quote

FloridaBoy wrote:
First of all my friend,


Friend? No, I don't know you and you surely don't know me. So if you are trying to set the tone and talk down to me I don't appreciate it. If on the other hand your trying to be nice then okay, that's good. I've just never been addressed that way on these forums before and find it an odd way to start your speaking directly at me since we don't know each other.


Quote:
I'm not the only one who has suggested that activated carbon could be linked to HLLE; do your own research and you will find many others who have reported this.


You are implying that I haven't done research. I've done my research, it has lead me to a different conclusion based on the preponderance of evidence to the contrary. However, your statement is often a tactic people use when they haven't hard evidence to support their claims. I've not seen any hard evidence. I'm interested in your single incident but without lots of other controls it's carries little real weight IMO. My assertion is that you made claims that don't follow logic or science. Claiming that you've seen it and you know with certainty that carbon caused HLLE is purely anecdotal. It's great, thanks for sharing your opinion but you tried to pass this off as fact. I can't find the basis for your affirmation. That's all, you made a statement which I questioned.

Quote:
Second, I have not drawn any conclusions on the above; only listed a personal observation which I agree, was "curious."


This is where the "misunderstanding" must have started. See when I read your statements:

Quote:
I have personally even seen this brought on overnight by too much activated carbon.


I really don't see the word curious or anything other than a affirmation that the only possible cause was the AC. Looking back without all the other extraneous debating I can see that your possible intent was to say "while I can't say with certainty that AC caused HLLE it did happen overnight after I added too much AC. Your statement seemed very direct and forceful in your claim that you were 100% certain that AC was the culprit as no other possibilities exist. Should I now understand that you were only relaying that single observation as curious and probably not conclusive? While you feel based on the situation, the most logical explanation was AC then that's fine. My objection was the way I interpreted you as claiming it as fact.


Quote:
This is a forum for discussion (not rubuttals) and yet I am surprised how many closed minded "experts" we atttract, the kind of experts who are very eager to say "always" and "never" at the drop of a hat. Don't shoot the messenger. I don't put words in other folks mouths, that would strike of immaturity or rudeness.


I've been a moderator at these forums for years before your appearance, I am abundantly aware of the scope of how things works. And yes, any opinion expressed is open for someone making a counterclaim. What we won't allow is for the debate to become abusive or highly personal. Stick to the subject and debate the issue. Without the ability of rebuttal anyone could may outlandish claims without being checked and corrected. While we allow all opinions expressed, right or wrong ones, we also allow anyone to counter those claims. Phrases such as "closed minded" borders on taking it personal and should be left out. Regarding "experts"...it's a title given after being earned, it's not something someone can ever "claim" to be. I'm not sure who you were directing that comment to but I know without question it's not me. I am very well educated in many areas of fishkeeping but my saltwater experiences don't come close to making me more than a novice in training. I do have a very solid grasp on Chemistry and Biology. Hence, why the AC claim is difficult for me to reach the same conclusion as you did. Even if others make the same claim, that doesn't bolster another claim. Does science have an explanation? Is the possibility grounded in knowing all the facts? What other factors weren't in control? Again I'll state that I think your sharing the information was good, I just disagree with it being presented as a matter of fact.

Quote:
I think, and have said before, carbon should be used sparingly in marine systems; it adsorbs at the molecular level, which may interfere with the slime coat of the fish. Note, I did not say NEVER use it. Maybe that's why Terry Bartelme in his extensive research suggests one of the ways to gaurd against HLLE is to LIMIT THE USE OF ACTIVATED CARBON.


See that is so much better than:

Quote:
I have personally even seen this brought on overnight by too much activated carbon.


Quote:

Aww, heck maybe I'm wrong, but is it not YOU who are leaping and making the assumption that I am wrong?


I wasn't the one making the statement that HLLE was brought on by AC...overnight. I'm simply questioning you as to why and how you can be so certain. I never directly said you are wrong. I'm only questioning the factors you considered when making a claim that I don't feel has enough controls in place to give a known answer. Does that mean your assumption is wrong? IMO most likely. Will I directly say you are wrong? I can't, not all the factors are known, yet I also can't let a claim that I don't feel can be substantiated remain unchecked. Honestly, this has become something it never should have, for some reason I think you took this as a personal challenge. It was not. It was a challenge to a single statement, one which I believe you may have had a different intent. Why are we making this such a big deal? No one questioned what you saw and observed, or even a suggestion of a possible link...it was the assertion of the link that I found needed to be challenged with more information.
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KDodds
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PostPosted: 2005.04.11(Mon)8:06    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "garbage" I don't have time for is people misquoting and intentionally creating "debate" scenarios where none exist with the intention of starting arguments. I'll see y'all on TR, it's pretty evident your resident "expert" here can handle the questions, albeit, without any logical reasoning.
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FloridaBoy
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PostPosted: 2005.04.11(Mon)20:39    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Steve, ease up on the caffeine a little. One thing you are dead wrong on, I am not here to "debate," as you command of me in your post.
If you continue on this tone, I assure you I will not respond again.
Now you seem like a smart enough guy, so I'll try again to salvage this thing for the benefits of others who may read it someday. Like yourself, I am not an expert, only trying to help others (and marine life) with experience gained from some years spent at the retail, wholesale and collector levels of the industry.
When I started this thread, and donated my time/experience/observations to this forum, I never dreamed I would be met with such debate from a moderator, but I can appreciate the challenege of your thoughts. And don't worry, I will NEVER refer to you as "friend" again, LOL. Actually, I have seen this reaction to carbon on several occasions over the years, not just one (and so have others). You assumed it was just one because that's all I mentioned, but it was several times, and I honestly feel I can easily reproduce the same results again, but it's kind of cruel to do that intentionally, especially to a gorgeous fish. I see you have compeletly ignored my reference to the research that Terry Bartelme did in his series of published articles on HLLE. That's the article in which Terry concludes with the educated hypothesis that some carbon use is okay, but also suggests one of the ways to gaurd against HLLE is to LIMIT THE USE OF ACTIVATED CARBON. Go back and look at your post; other than a load of rapid fire comments about what you think of my post, you have added ZERO real research/science/references to the discussion as I have. Now if you want to continue this, please, for the benefit of others who may be as bored as I am here, set aside your attittude and submit some references from your own research and others in the field who have proven the excessive carbon theory to be a false concept. THAT would be constructive and helpful to others; which I'm sure is your goal as a moderator? If excessive carbon can trigger HLLE, isn't that worth exploring, I.e. how much is excessive? Are certain brands of carbon more likely to do this than others? What say ye?
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@-McP
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PostPosted: 2005.04.11(Mon)21:20    Post subject: Reply with quote

not to offend anyone here but I think Steve and KDodds are trying to be more progressive in their thinking than relying on undocumented cases that you have seen FB. I totally respect you but you seem to have some kind of condescending tone in this thread that is truly uncharacteristic of you from what I've seen Confused

what I've gathered that everyone is saying is that carbon and skimming have been used when HLLE is present and when it isnt. this to me would say that it isnt a main factor but I also am no expert...far from it Wink

skimming and carbon do have an effect at the molecular level so I agree that they can have an effect on water parameters. this isnt to say that skimming and using carbon will eliminate the problems of overfeeding and organics completely...they can still be there to cause problems if you arent stringent with your maintenance of the aquarium. to support the LS/LR natural filtering method from what I've read these are sustainable as well, but proper maintenance is also needed. I think from the forum chit chat and various articles I have read that hole in the head is something that doesn't have one cause but can have a myriad of contributors. I suggest that water parameters and feeding(which could very possibly effect water) are two of the possible causes. I would also think that the overall health of the fish would be a contributor which would lead me to believe that again proper diet is crucial in this aspect as well as selection of healthy specimens.

sorry if I offended anyone but I was just wondering what you thought of those opinions^^^?
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Steve Hampton
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PostPosted: 2005.04.12(Tue)6:32    Post subject: Reply with quote

FloridaBoy wrote:
Hey Steve, ease up on the caffeine a little. One thing you are dead wrong on, I am not here to "debate," as you command of me in your post.
If you continue on this tone, I assure you I will not respond again.
Now you seem like a smart enough guy, so I'll try again to salvage this thing for the benefits of others who may read it someday.


No more forum space will be spent in this type of banter. I've sent you a PM and will not repsond in this or any other threads in this section. Wow, you've managed to run off two people with one topic by hurling insults. Way to go.
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