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This makes me sick :-(
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nonamethefish
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Joined: 06 Feb 2003

PostPosted: 2005.03.13(Sun)21:41    Post subject: Reply with quote

Their are a few sites on fighting bettas out there. Basic points they put out are.

-Bettas do not fight do death. When one gives up it is removed. They claim bettas are practically never killed or seriously injured and heal up within 2 weeks.

-Bettas are taken good care of after the fights and are prepared before fights

-The fish seem to "like" fighting(though we personify a fish to this fashion of course)-saying that even a fish which has been in a fight yesterday and has most of its fins torn would still fight if given the oppurtunity.

Since I've only kept one betta and of course never tried fighting it I can't comment on any of this. IMO all of this is ones own choice to make.
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The Undertaker01
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Joined: 05 Dec 2004
Location: Athlone,Ireland

PostPosted: 2005.03.17(Thu)18:01    Post subject: Reply with quote

This reminds me of a tank I see when I'm walking around town. It was a 48" and it had three Red Tailed Sharks, Honey gouramis, A common pleco, and about 8 other fish which I forget. Yesterday I looked at it... and I was appalled. ALMOST EVERY FISH IN THE TANK WAS DEAD EXCEPT FOR TWO SHARKS (one didn't look too well either)AND A PLECO! Their bodies were still floating in the tank! This sort of sh*t disgusts me...
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kilted
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Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Location: Hendersonville, TN

PostPosted: 2005.03.24(Thu)3:24    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a very complicated issue. While I am completely opposed to the keeping of fish by someone who gets a cheap thrill out of watching one fish beat up on another I feel that this issue goes a bit deeper than this.

How do we address things like feeder fish or feeder ghost shrimp? What about feeding your fish live brine shrimp or earthworms? Even if you feed your fish nothing but prepared foods almost all of them include animals that were killed for no other reason than to allow us to keep fish in our homes, something we all enjoy but that we primarily do for somewhat selfish reasons.

Over the years I spent working in fish stores I came across the occasional sicko who wanted to fight bettas or thought it would be great fun to watch a couple of large cichlids battle it out, but these individuals were rare compared to the ones who got a thrill out of watching their piranhas eat. Or who thought it was great fun to feed comets to his oscar. I personally can see a difference in using fish for food and mistreating a fish, or any other animal, for a sick way to get your jollies, but how many people outside our hobby would be able to draw this line? I assume many fish keepers themselves find it hard to draw this line as well.

So if we start thinking about bringing the justice system in on this are we opening a huge can of worms that may wind up causing all of us problems in the long run?

Just something to think about.
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Kideafish
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Joined: 17 Dec 2003
Location: South Wales ( U.K)

PostPosted: 2005.03.24(Thu)7:04    Post subject: Reply with quote

nonamethefish wrote:
Their are a few sites on fighting bettas out there. Basic points they put out are.

-Bettas do not fight do death. When one gives up it is removed. They claim bettas are practically never killed or seriously injured and heal up within 2 weeks.


Sorry but you are WRONG !! Take a Cichlid , take many other fish !! They will fight to the death or bully another to the death. The Siamese fighter is USED for this. They will kill each other, or rather the domineering fish will pick at the weaker one and keep at it until it dies of stress or respiratory problems. This does not always happen as sometimes the fighter stager will remove the fish before this happens , but this is rare. They are sadistic enough to sport this and deaths occur often !! They will never clear up in two weeks. I breed Bettas and used to use a divider in large tanks to keep them apart. A Crowntail got in with a standard Betta of mine while pouring the clean water back into the tank ,the divider slipped and during the time it took me to run and get a net and get him out, the standard hard torn half his tail off !! This took weeks of water changes and Melafix to regrow !! This happens within seconds, Fighter stagers would not get anywhere with seconds of fighting like this, that is why the fish are not removed when they are tired or torn , that would be no fun to them.


nonamethefish wrote:
Bettas are taken good care of after the fights and are prepared before fights


Again WRONG. Most of them are kept in small pop bottles with no care for the fish. Most of them are fished out and used the same day and you will hardly ever get a fish that will survive the day. There is no way you can PREPARE a fish for a fight! We are not talking Mike Tyson or Lenox Lewis here, just Fish thta are plonked in any bowl/container large enough for them to fight.-

nonamethefish wrote:
The fish seem to "like" fighting(though we personify a fish to this fashion of course)-saying that even a fish which has been in a fight yesterday and has most of its fins torn would still fight if given the oppurtunity.



Siamese males fight as the fatherly and territorial instinct is in them. Remember they are the lone parent that rears the fry and this instinct to protect them and themselves is always there. I doubt it is enjoyment as many male fighters if together would prefer to swim away from each other and give the occassional flare when neccessary. My home bred males are kept in tanks together until I want to breed them. When a male has been removed and spawned with, you can never return him to his siblings tank, even though two days or so ago he was happily swimming with them, a large tank of course but ,nether the less, together and eating together. This is because he has now became a father and territory protection is there with him.

nonamethefish wrote:
Since I've only kept one betta and of course never tried fighting it I can't comment on any of this. IMO all of this is ones own choice to make.


Agreed, I do no want to sound aggressive but I do feel people should be made aware of the position these fish are put in. It is NOT a natural thing and put on them by us HUMANS.
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Huntress
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Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Location: Houston TX

PostPosted: 2005.03.24(Thu)8:33    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's exactly like cock fighting and dog fighting. These animals are conditioned to fight. Plain and simple. Noname: please go read some more information about this barbaric practice. Especially since you think that there are few injuries and they heal up in 2 weeks. They shouldn't have to heal up from ANYTHING this unnatural!!!! Also, watch anything you can on dog fighting. It the bloody exact same thing.

Also, I've been in contact with someone in IN about this website that breeds fighters for fighting and it indeed violates IN state law and we are looking to get their behinds shut down.

I am extremely passionate about animal cruelty in all its forms from neglect to outright abuse.
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benedictj
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Joined: 05 Dec 2004
Location: new york, ny

PostPosted: 2005.03.24(Thu)9:59    Post subject: Reply with quote

kilted wrote:

How do we address things like feeder fish or feeder ghost shrimp? What about feeding your fish live brine shrimp or earthworms? Even if you feed your fish nothing but prepared foods almost all of them include animals that were killed for no other reason than to allow us to keep fish in our homes, something we all enjoy but that we primarily do for somewhat selfish reasons.


While I completely understand that this is a source of concern for some, I think there is a pretty clear deliniation between feeders and animal creulty. Primarily, natural law.

Ghost Shrimp and feeders are simply assuming their place in the food chain when we place them in a tank as food. If we threw them in the Amazon, chances are that eventually they would meet the same fate. As for beefheart and other animal products being added to foods, I find that this is actually better in the sense that we are using parts of animals that might not otherwise sold commerically. It is one step closer to utilizing the full slaughter, which is both effecient and in certain ways more appreciative of the animal's sacrifice.

But, back to the real debate, the site noname brought in actually incenses me more. It is disgusting to see someone take something that is inherently un-natural and cruel and then try to gloss it up. It is almost more devoid of conscience than simply putting two cichlids together to spar. It is a published advocation of this behaviour. It is tatamont to executing a falsely accused man by lethal injection and then saying "Well, at least it was a more humane death then hanging."

Props to you Huntress for trying to take em out.
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Huntress
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Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Location: Houston TX

PostPosted: 2005.03.24(Thu)10:52    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL when my green card goes through I want to take the animal cruelty investigations courses.

Oh and to mention feeder shrimp and fish. hello?????? You've bought them to be FOOD. You didn't buy them to be a pet. That's like saying me going out camping and fishing for my supper is animal cruelty. Come on. That's slicing the bread a little too thin IMO
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TheVillageIdiot
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Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Location: Roswell, GA

PostPosted: 2005.03.24(Thu)11:10    Post subject: Reply with quote

huntress, there are people who say eating any type of meat is animal cruelty...

I'd be curious to get more detail from richard, what's the tank like now, are the fish still beating eachother up or did they establish a hierarchy?

boxers or briefs?
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kilted
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Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Location: Hendersonville, TN

PostPosted: 2005.03.24(Thu)12:15    Post subject: Reply with quote

Huntress wrote:
LOL when my green card goes through I want to take the animal cruelty investigations courses.

Oh and to mention feeder shrimp and fish. hello?????? You've bought them to be FOOD. You didn't buy them to be a pet. That's like saying me going out camping and fishing for my supper is animal cruelty. Come on. That's slicing the bread a little too thin IMO


Think for a second though, what is the difference between someone who fights bettas and someone who loves watching his piranha rip apart goldfish? We are talking about killing animals for our own personal pleasure, and it isn't much of a stretch at all to decide that flake foods that contain fish are the same thing. We own fish because we get pleasure out of it, our aquariums don't benefit anyone but ourselves, the average home aquarist isn't doing anything to help preserve endangered species with their aquariums, they aren't being used to educate the general public, they are there because we like them. To someone who isn't an aquarium hobbyist it would be very easy for them to say that fighting bettas, feeding goldfish to piranhas, and feeding fish food flakes to guppies are all about the same thing, they all involve animals being killed for our personal enjoyment.

I never said this is the way I feel but I do think if we start using animal cruelty laws to stop the things we find distasteful that we could wind up creating all sorts of other problems because not everyone feels the same way we do.
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Huntress
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Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Location: Houston TX

PostPosted: 2005.03.24(Thu)12:45    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no difference between someone fighting bettas and who loves watching their pirhana rip up goldfish. Both people are in it for the violent aspect of it. Now feeding live food, just as a food source and taking no obscene pleasure for it is a totally different matter.
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