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This makes me sick :-(
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Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Location: Houston TX

PostPosted: 2004.12.20(Mon)10:14    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, instead of licensing the owners, the licenses should go to the aquarium shop workers. They can then educate the potential owner and refuse to sell a fish if adequate care cannot be given.

Kapenta, if people had more respect for animals and themselves and the law, then these things wouldn't be necessary. Harsher penalties should also be imposed and those penalties should be the kind that would make people not want to break the law again instead of thinking htey can just get a slap on the wrist every time they break the law. I'll gladly pay any taxes that will help animals and conservation.
"Feminae bene moratea historiam raro faciunt"
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Joined: 10 Oct 2004

PostPosted: 2005.01.13(Thu)20:52    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe some of you will agree with what I am about to say, or you won't, or you will become offended and dislike me here afterwards... but in any case, I'm going to voice MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION.
I do somewhat agree with Huntress. People should be punished for cruelty against any animal; after all, quality of life may not be judged or labelled by the size, life line or shape of a living creature. Nor should it be judged by the capacity of the animals brain and understanding of life itself.
However, I agree more with The Kapenta Kid, for more arguements then he gave. They are:
Arrow Even though some people, Huntress and other aquarists, do believe that cruelty to fish should be backed up with laws and new regulations, and they are willing to pay the extra taxes, I am more then sure that the rest of society and the thousand some-odd population of any state/province will not want to pay extra taxes to keep other peoples fish alive. Most people simply don't care about fish, whether we fish keepers like it or not. Fish are tiny, and we are the dominant species. Humans put themselves ahead and first.
Arrow Secondly, Whether anybody, even I, want to hear this or not: There are much more important things in the world to worry about then who is sacrificing or killing there pet fish which cost them nothing close to an arm or a leg. Women are being raped and beaten, countries are drowning in their own disease and poverty, and some people are taking their lives because they actually believe that their own life is not worth a single hug, kiss, penny, or heartbeat. Fish are important to fishkeepers and aquarists, and nobody else.
Arrow Thirdly and Lastly, even if anybody did take such an animal abuse case to the courts to have a person found guilty of bringing harm to a fish, what do you think the courts will say? It was a fish, and as stated above, we are the dominant species, we care for ourselves, and a situation as trivial as whether or not a person should be punished for harming a fish will be discarded, laughed upon, and seen as a waste of time. It should not be, but it will be.
Sometimes, we, as people who truly enjoy the pleasure of tiny, scaley fish swimming around in our home, let our bias get in the way of seeing the big picture. No matter how much any aquarist or scientific calculation argues, there will never be laws that say we cannot kill tropical or gold fish unless that fish is close to extinction or costs close to $1000 dollars. I don't know if there are fish that cost as much, but I'm using this as an example.
Again, this is my own opinion that should not be critisized or ripped apart. My opinion is not wrong, nor is it right. Maybe one day the law will prove me utterly wrong, but I don't think that day will come so soon.
I am very sorry if a have offended anyone, but please try to think and see my logic, and remember, it is still JUST MY OPINION.
Thanks for taking the time to read this,
Kyleen McGragh
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Marcos Avila

Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Location: Hiroshima (JP)

PostPosted: 2005.01.13(Thu)23:13    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well first of all the fact that there is violence and hunger and poverty in the world is by no means an excuse for people to stop concerning themselves about "less important" things. They all go together as part of humanity and are all worth being addressed to some degree or another.

Second, no matter how hopeless things may seem sometimes, progress *is* being made in terms of general awareness and respect to nature and animals, and to fish in particular, even if the scaly animals are dragging somewhat behind. The source of frustration in such cases is usually from the timescale of such progress, which is typically measured in generations, not years or even decades. A few generations ago, nobody would be really concerned or shocked by the fact that baby seals and minks were being slaughtered to become fur coats, and anyone who opposed that was considered a freak. The current generation pretty much despises that practice now, mostly due to the rightness of the cause and the persistence of those freaks (OK, maybe they got a little help from goddesses like Brigitte Bardot Wink).

Years ago nobody would be arrested for cruelty to a dog, now they can and are in some places. Right now it may be that nobody really gets arrested for cruelty to fish, but if the cause is right and the fish freaks are persistent, maybe in the next generation they will...time will tell.
Are you a Fish-HAVER or a Fish-KEEPER?
Success with a fish/tank is measured in YEARS, not months or weeks...
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Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

PostPosted: 2005.01.14(Fri)4:46    Post subject: Reply with quote

just a question. would 2 goldfish in a small probably 15g tank with no equitment some pebles as the substrate be considered cruelty? also I think huntresses idea was more likely. a licence to sell aquarium fish fresh or salt ect is more realistic. also I don't think they would need to be trained but I think they should have to take a quiz. and not just the owner but the workers too.

32g planted community
7.5g Nano Reef
1 four legged wonder napper
2 winged demons
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Theobald Brooks
New Members

Joined: 14 Jan 2005

PostPosted: 2005.01.14(Fri)18:20    Post subject: Reply with quote

Debating the particular points of an issue and even the two sides of the issue will go on forever, what's important is that when you hear someone say something like that you try not to let it get under your skin. There is really nothing you can say or do to change their minds. The best thing you can do is to try and educate newcomers to the hobby on the importance of "ethical" fishkeeping. Education is a powerful tool.

I too have experienced this problem on other boards as well as personally. Too often visitors to my home say things like, "I can't believe you only have one fish in that big tank" or "It looks so empty". Personally I enjoy bonding with my aggressive fish on a personal level and enjoying their beauty. How much less beautiful they would be with ragged fins, missing scales and torn lips.
There is no such thing as too much filtration.
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Joined: 25 Oct 2004
Location: ontario, canada

PostPosted: 2005.01.17(Mon)20:34    Post subject: Reply with quote

it makes me queasy to hear that someone wants to watch fish slowly murder each other for sheer pleasure however if it were any other animal people would think it wrong (dog fighting roosters etc) like marcos said, its sad to know that there are people out there who have nothing better to do than to watch a few helpless fish suffer while ignorant people think its cool as they play an evil god. like someone said their time could be spent doing something good for the world, instead of having a meaningless slaughter of one of the worlds most gorgeous creatures for fun on a saturday night! anyways I hope people like that really get what they deserve! Exclamation
the stars watch us like guardian angels!
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Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Location: Taylorsville, KY

PostPosted: 2005.01.21(Fri)19:28    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have expressed my opinion about this many times... and I will encourage this yet again.

There is probably not much that will change in the regulation of the aquarium industry in the near future, and definately not in the freshwater industry. However, there is something each of us can do to make a difference.

Every time you are at a LFS and you hear an employee giving bad advice, SPEAK UP! Don't be rude, but let your knowledge be known. Go to the book shelf, pick up a fish atlas, and find something to back up your knowledge. We do not have to stand aside and listen to the LFS give bad advice. The customer will be greatful for your interference, and the LFS will learn a hard lesson about educating its employees.

Finally, do not do business with any LFS that is not ethical in its treatment of CUSTOMERS. If they can't give good advice, then spend your money elsewhere. This means on dog food, fish food, books, rawhide, bird feed, hamsters, etc etc. And do not hesitate to spread the word to others in the hobby.

There are good LFS out there. Support them!
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Joined: 20 Sep 2004

PostPosted: 2005.02.01(Tue)5:35    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting thread, I agree however that it is just sick and yes I would consider it cruelty on every level.

Ideally the LFS where the guy shops will make the requisite inquiries to prevent these people from making an inordinate amount of purchases, but that is quite demanding on the LFS.

AND yes I would absolutely agree with the "taking our business elsewhere" there is a LFS at home who's tank look deplorable, worse than the Wal-mart tanks even. I have boycotted it and got a few followers too.
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Joined: 17 Dec 2003
Location: South Wales ( U.K)

PostPosted: 2005.02.07(Mon)13:27    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wondering if these people have been BANNED from using this site.

No-one wants to read and see disgusting threads like that on the forum!!
Me for one!!

An announcement advising people when they join that this is a forum for helping and giving good advice on fish , but most of all the ENJOYMENT of keeping them!! If they feel they must be crude and upset other fish-lovers/keepers then they will find themselves banned from the site.

There are enough members on the forum surely banning the odd few delinquents will not hurt !

There is a new aquatics website set up by the UK fish magazine Tropical Fish people. It has well over a thousand members now and been set up a couple of months. It is something that has been lacking here in the UK and is looking to be a Big hit as 96% of the web based Forums are American, and NO-ONE would dare post a thread on this forum like that for knowing we would delete it and ban them!!

Instead of taking away the Cichlid Column that a lot of people enjoy, BAN those that create the problem. Easy as that !

Loving my waterbabies ! Are you ?
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Joined: 05 Dec 2004
Location: new york, ny

PostPosted: 2005.02.07(Mon)15:02    Post subject: Reply with quote

I kind of disagree with the idea of banning members who post these types of threads in principle. The whole mission here is to promote responsible fish keeping. If you begin limiting people's access to that message, you aren't universally promoting anything. In essence, barring folks from participating is vacating that promotion and simply limiting who can reap the benefits of participating.

Further, I think the membership of the board does a pretty good job doing this on their own. I have witnessed quite a few posts in my short time as a member where people's perceptions of what is acceptable have been corrected. Also, lots of folks seem to stop posting after being set straight simply because they didn't get the validation they needed.

I would however say that the idea of banning habitual offenders might not be a wholey bad idea, since I can personally say reading some of the ignorant banter that seems pretty prevelant on the boards strictly limited to tank busting fish gets pretty annoying and really doesn't do much for anyone.
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