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LBC
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Joined: 07 Nov 2004

PostPosted: 2004.11.29(Mon)13:45    Post subject: Reply with quote

So the IP address of everyone who posts here is stored and our posts could potentially be used against us as evidence? Almost sounds like a threat. I'm not sure if this is such a wise practice for several reasons, privacy being the first and most important. I believe if this is the way the board has to be run then it should be clearly stated in a "Terms of Use" policy or privacy statement, letting the members know that they can and will be tracked for whatever reason the owner and staff of this site wishes.

Intolerable language and dribble is one thing, but ratting on a person for what they type here is pretty low.

Sad
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LBC
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Joined: 07 Nov 2004

PostPosted: 2004.11.29(Mon)14:09    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve Hampton wrote:




To summarize I just want to point out again that you really have no way of knowing what other replies or problems may have been in a post that got deleted. And frankly, most of the posts aren't deleted but are actually moved to a "Hidden" forum for thread storage and possible referral to the ISP of the threatening/abusive/profane poster...it's the best way to preserve the "evidence" and to save the offenders IP address.



What is an IP going to do with this information anyway? It is not an offense to be offensive, especially online where a vast miriad of personalities and lifestyles exist. Honesty I think this policy is hogwash and the site would be better off policing itself, and finding a better way of dealing with potential trouble makers. My ISP would tell you to contact their lawyers as I am a paying customer that has a contract with them with terms that I have not violated. Not even to mention that this in an international site with users in countries where such rules and laws don't exist.

Don't mean to be blunt or anything, but these types of potential intrusions into my life make me upset. This is not directed at any one person either, but the entire administration.


Sorry for the double post above, but I forgot to login. But I am assuming you already know it was me...
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Cyradia
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Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Winston-Salem, NC

PostPosted: 2004.11.29(Mon)14:45    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few quick points...

1. EVERYwhere you surf has your IP collected. Nearly any site owner can produce a log of every IP address that has viewed their pages (much less done something as invasive as posted a comment.) I'm not talking about big, commercial sites either...I'm talking about the little mom and pop sites you can host for $9 a month. That's absolutely common practice. To view a site you have to have your computer talk to the web server...and IP addresses are how this is done. If you think any site is purging this information for privacy I'm afraid you're mistaken...and I'm still talking about situations where you're just viewing static pages. It would be silly to have a posting situation where this information wasn't available to the owner and designated moderators.

2. Nobody is going to contact an ISP because someone disagrees in their fish keeping practices. However, in situations where threats are made or spamming is taking place...ISPs are a very good place to start. I'll admit...I'm not a moderator very involved in contacting ISP sites on this forum. However, I used to moderate a gaming site and we very often had immature users result to idle threats (oh yeah...I'm going to find you and beat you up in real life!!!) and foolish attempts to damage our online presence (spamming a board or attempting to hack into a system.) You'd be amazed at how helpful ISPs can be in that situation. Paying customer or not....things like spamming and hacking are illegal and if they're providing the bandwidth they can be liable.
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sirreal63
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Joined: 21 Feb 2004
Location: St Louis

PostPosted: 2004.11.29(Mon)14:45    Post subject: Reply with quote

To put a different light on this...I am on a car club board and it is mostly made up of younger people. One bragged about beating a 10 yr. old up for saying something rude to him. This person was 21. The Admins moved the post to a secure area before the guy got flamed anymore for beating up a minor. Of course they had his I.p. addie and turned a copy of the post and his I.p. to the cops in his area. The cops investigated and found out that not only did he beat up a minor, but put him in the hospital...not good. With the info. provided by the car club, this person was arrested.

I am an Admin of a few different boards and I can assure you it is important not only for the protection of the board, but for your protection as members. You may feel that what you say here is anymous and cannot hurt anyone, but that isn't true. What you say here is no different than what you would say in public...this is a public venue. The Admins have a responsibility to keep this board clean and friendly for the members here. Believe that, they do and they will. Someone has to pay for this board, and they have the right to run it as they see fit.
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Puresouthern
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Joined: 08 Oct 2004
Location: Central Florida

PostPosted: 2004.11.29(Mon)15:21    Post subject: Reply with quote

LBC wrote:
Steve Hampton wrote:




To summarize I just want to point out again that you really have no way of knowing what other replies or problems may have been in a post that got deleted. And frankly, most of the posts aren't deleted but are actually moved to a "Hidden" forum for thread storage and possible referral to the ISP of the threatening/abusive/profane poster...it's the best way to preserve the "evidence" and to save the offenders IP address.



What is an IP going to do with this information anyway? It is not an offense to be offensive, especially online where a vast miriad of personalities and lifestyles exist. Honesty I think this policy is hogwash and the site would be better off policing itself, and finding a better way of dealing with potential trouble makers. My ISP would tell you to contact their lawyers as I am a paying customer that has a contract with them with terms that I have not violated. Not even to mention that this in an international site with users in countries where such rules and laws don't exist.

Don't mean to be blunt or anything, but these types of potential intrusions into my life make me upset. This is not directed at any one person either, but the entire administration.


Sorry for the double post above, but I forgot to login. But I am assuming you already know it was me...



Let ME be blunt. I do volunteer work for AOL, let me assure you THEY do keep track of you and despite that you are a PAYING customer they WILL not send it off to a lawyer if they detect a problem. And AOL is INTERNATIONAL. If you don't want the intrusion and big brother watching I suggest you don't use your computer or sign onto the internet.

Case scenario, I was contacted by what we knew was a teenager on my board, she told ME she was gonna to kill herself. She was a highly depressed young woman. As soon as I got the email I notified my supervisor who then notified who had account information. When the owners of the account could not be reached local authorities were contacted IMMEDIATELY.

screen names are faceless but there has to be some protection whether you like it or not. I can not tell you how many times I have seen a child post up potential harmful information or see someone contact a child. You may think that because you are paying you have rights but so do the other people that are paying and the protection is there for EVERYONE.
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Steve Hampton
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Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Location: Jacksonville, FL

PostPosted: 2004.11.29(Mon)15:34    Post subject: Reply with quote

LBC wrote:

Don't mean to be blunt or anything, but these types of potential intrusions into my life make me upset. This is not directed at any one person either, but the entire administration.


I am purposefully being blunt. If protecting everyone that uses these forums from personal threating attacks seems as though this site is invading your personal freedom then by all means, find a new place on the web for fishkeeping information. We will never compromise the safety and security of our member base to satisfy your feelings of paranoia. To be blunt, leave and don't look back.
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Huntress
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Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Location: Houston TX

PostPosted: 2004.11.29(Mon)16:51    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will also be blunt. If you violate the rules of the board and continue to do so after being warned by the owners and moderators of the site, then you may be reported to your ISP for abuse. I guarantee that they will not tell us to go to their lawyers and if sufficient proof is brought to their attention your account can be revoked, because it is a violation of your agreement with the ISP. To an ISP the use of their services is a priviledge and not a right and in your contract that you sign with them, you agree that your account can be terminated for any reason that they decide is grounds for termination. We had an issue a year or so ago that required us to send a complaint to an ISP because all avenues were exhausted in dealing with said person. Contacting someone's ISP is a last resort but if you think that any and all of the message boards, web sites and chat rooms that you visit don't log and keep an eye on your IP address then you are extremely naive. Also, just to let you know, Interpol handles any and all international problems dealing with the internet, so if you violate the law using a site in another country you are prosecuted unter international law.

Secondly, Not once in my post did I state anything was going to be done about anyone's IP address. What I did state that when a member was confronted with the possibility of setting up two seperate accounts they told me that it was for their brother, which normally is OK because we do have several siblings that have different accounts on this board. However when confronted with a blatant lie that they had posted I was told that they don't live together. Last time I checked a static IP address is issued to ONE location and ONE location only. Considering I volunteer my time for the ISP that provides internet access to the apartments in my complex, I think I do have a clue as to what I am talking about here. Working with networks and static IP addresses sort of gives me practical experience.

Third of all, if you are going to read into one comment and blow your top over something that you blew totally out of proportion then you should really rethink your involvment in the internet period.
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SherryNE
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Joined: 05 Feb 2003

PostPosted: 2004.11.29(Mon)17:16    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to buck the trend and not be blunt at all. In fact, I'm going to attempt to be tactful. I may be a bit rusty at that, bear with me.
Normally the only use we have for one's ISP address is to watch out for people who like to register under multiple names in order to troll. There's nothing particularly sinister, or Big Brotherish. We just check them as needed, and rarely if ever do anything whatsoever with the info, except maybe say "Hey, we caught you, nice try, don't do it again, please".
The thing is, we sadly attract a lot of people who wish to be problematic. This is a nice board, we have a lot of regulars who really like it, and lots of new people to the hobby have gotten great help and advice here. In fact, a lot of people NOT new to the hobby have also been able to share ideas, theories, and ect and so forth.
Over the years the "administration" (just a bunch of regulars who volunteer to help out, and Marcos, of course) have come up with a set of guidelines. These guidelines may seem rude, arrogant or arbitrary, but they aren't. In ever case where a restriction is placed, other ways of controlling the situation were tried first. The idea is for the board to smoothly serve the people who enjoy THIS TYPE of "serious" fishkeeping board. It is directed towards a certain type of fishkeeper, although all are welcome.
If your post is deleted, then it was because it violated a guideline. Nothing personal. If your post was moved, it was in the wrong place. Nothing personal, heck, we may have been trying to help you out by putting it where it would get more answers. If your IP address was looked up...well, it's still not personal, but it means you rang some sort of warning bell. It doesn't mean we plan to show up on your door and slap you with a big Oscar, or anything. It certainly does not mean that we intend "rat you out" for having multiple online "characters". Rat you out to whom, exactly??? As you say, it would be counterproductive to report most "trolls" to thier providers. We DO however, have our own safeguards in place, and only when they fail would even dream of moving on with a complaint. This site has gotten extremely efficent at "policing" ourselves, although I think of it more as "daily housekeeping" around here. Policing is an awfully Orwellian word, isn't it?
An amazing number of people on this board have run "afoul", and I use that term tounge in cheek, of the "administration" on this board, and not only lived to tell of it, but JOINED us! LOL. "We exist to serve", one might say.
So lighten up, enjoy the board, and follow the rules, please, as they are here to help. Truly. We mean it.
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LBC
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Joined: 07 Nov 2004

PostPosted: 2004.11.29(Mon)18:30    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cyradia: I browse several forums that expressly state they do not log IP addresses. Those that I know do log IPs generally don't threaten action against members who "break the rules". What is so silly about privacy and my protection? The words on the screen(profanity, spam) sure won't hurt me, but people with my personal information sure could...

Puresouthern: I don't subscribe to AOL and don't live in the US.

Steve Hampton: I don't know where you got the idea anyone was making personal threats, unless that is what the previous issue was about. My issues have been stated and don't have anything to do with violence or paranoia, rather transparency and honesty(both of which are good business practices). Leave and don't look back? Where does this hostility come from Steve? What did I do to you? Is this board not the foundation of an actual business? Is this how customers are treated...?

Huntress: I have never violated the rules of the site, except once by accident where I double posted. Account revoked? What authority do you think you all have here? I can download hardcore porn, I can sell lumps of crap on eBay, I can do whatever I please on the internet and no ISP is going to care what so ever. They themselves are not in the business of policing the content and practices of their users. If this were true and they thought they could/should wouldn't people think twice about sharing mp3s and whatnot?

Use of their service is a privledge? There are tons of ISPs out there giving super hot deals to new subscribers, maybe they would want my business. And I'd like to know how you think you would know the terms of the contract I have with my ISP. International law? For saying swear words on a fish board? Yeesh!

Huntress I wasn't responding to your post, sorry if you thought this was true.

This isn't blowing my top, it is bringing light to a very questionable practice.

SherryNE: I am light, and I do enjoy the board very much!

Well I'm sorry I made a mountain out of a mole hill, but I stand by what I said and believe. I am also sorry to see that there are very mean spirited folk here that are in the position of power and seek to discourage membership. All rules have to be questioned and only in the presences of such questions will things improve.
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Puresouthern
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Joined: 08 Oct 2004
Location: Central Florida

PostPosted: 2004.11.29(Mon)18:55    Post subject: Reply with quote

LBC wrote:

Puresouthern: I don't subscribe to AOL and don't live in the US.

.



I didn't say you did, I was using it as an example. Most do log and I would question the practice of any site that didn't. Kind of like don't ask don't tell. Most do and there are very good reasons for it, just like good reason for SS#, drivers liscense and finger prints. Any site you go and practices the logging has a right to protect ALL its customers not just you.

Quite honestly I always question why people make a big deal out of this, unless they have something to hide. :::shrug::: Welcome to the new millenium. don't like it I would suggest they don't connect to the web.
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