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want to ask about "stunted" fish
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ZacAdam
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Joined: 17 Jul 2009
Location: Saint John, NB, Canada

PostPosted: 2010.11.21(Sun)16:49    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, Diademhill's got a valid point about the attitude towards the fish. It's a matter of ethics, not ability If you aren't able to meet your pet's needs, you shouldn't get one. It's sort of like having a child that you can't afford a bed for, but at least it looks cute and you can still put food in its belly.

It's an arrangement that works, but is subprimal. If you want to avoid the water changes/getting a bigger tank, get another small tank and set up a sump. It's my understanding that that should at least ease the bio-load.
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diademhill
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Joined: 18 Apr 2007

PostPosted: 2010.11.21(Sun)17:10    Post subject: Reply with quote

As you corrected my spelling, which wasn't actually a spelling mistake but the wrong word, please allow me to point out that Darwin should be capitalised and as a distant relative of his I feel quite strongly about this.

Fish eat fish but they naturally eat fish from their own waters, not fish reared in poor conditions elsewhere that bring along pathogens and, if you use goldfish, a high fat content that causes the piscivores potential health problems down the line.
I think I answered your question "should I move the Bichir" by saying he needs target feeding and the part about "will he ever reach that 10-12" I hear about? is it just a SLOW grower?" with "To grow fish you need optimum conditions and lots of fresh water."
Please read what is on screen.

I take advice when needed from peers & experts.
Which big-screen? I have three TV's over 40" (not counting monitors) and I don't have a therapist apart from my horse who is a better listener than a paid minion.
I fail to see what reading a book on evolution has to do with cramming lots of fish in a small tank. Darwin is not difficult to read if you understand the English of the period. Much easier than Byron or Dickens.
May I suggest you learn the language rather than watching football where hands are used? You could start by reading this sticky.
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Jack
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Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Location: Newcastle, England

PostPosted: 2010.11.21(Sun)17:38    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without getting drawn into the debate, you really do need to move that birchir, temporarily at the very least. You specifically asked, now you've been specifically told.

You admit that the tank won't work long-term. No time like the present to sort it. Other people are more likely to want juveniles than older (and possibly stunted) fish.
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jsuereth
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Joined: 22 Aug 2010
Location: Pittsburgh, PA USA

PostPosted: 2010.11.21(Sun)19:17    Post subject: Reply with quote

diademhill wrote:

May I suggest you learn the language rather than watching football where hands are used? You could start by reading this sticky.


Of all things you could insult, you choose american football? Sad


In any case, I agree with what you're saying.

Queeequeg -

this forum is not the place to try to promote the belief that stunting fish is OK.

From your own perspective, think of it thus: If you give the fish 'optiimum' conditions they will be healthier, grow bigger and live longer granting you 'optimum enjoyment'. The *last* thing I want to come home and deal with is diseased, dead or dieing fish. The same goes for plants. You put a little work and limit yourself, you wind up with a very enjoyable low maintenance tank. It's all about laziness and enjoyment here.
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rales12
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Joined: 03 Nov 2009
Location: Wyoming

PostPosted: 2010.11.21(Sun)19:55    Post subject: Reply with quote

Queequeg; It seems to me that you're just here to show off smarts and challenge everybody to a duel of grammar and spelling. You asked about stunting and got some responses very specifically about preventing it, that nobody on this forum is OK with it, and that the best thing you can do to prevent stunting your fish is to lessen the bioload that you currently have. Just because fish tanks aren't the "optimal" way for a fish to live, doesn't mean that you should cram a bunch of them into a tank and expect us not to say something about it. You can point out books that you feel everybody should read all you want, but what do those books have to do with keeping fish? (And, for that matter, what do big screen TVs have to do with fish keeping? You want to talk about something that isn't any of your business; how big of a TV somebody has and how often they watch it has absolutely nothing to do with the value of their advice.)

You can pick fights and spark debates all you want, but if you refuse to acknowledge our ethics and approach to fishkeeping on this forum, then perhaps you should leave and find a forum that is more fitting to your personal views.

Nobody said you HAVE to do daily 50% water changes. Do as you will. You are the human. Everybody here is here in the interest of assisting others with the best way to raise their fish and care for them long term.

As for your attitude? You are being rude and you are throwing out insults in nearly every post. Everybody here is generally incredibly polite and insults are practically unheard. If you can't straighten that up, then I recommend finding other fish havers that fit your view and attitude towards fish. And, yes, we can comment on it because the rudeness and especially the unfounded insults are completely uncalled for, and not very well taken here.

You're going to have better luck finding somewhere else to chat with people who agree with your views than you are sticking around here and trying to force hundreds of other people to agree with you. That is a pointless plight, and we'll all be a lot better off if you don't attempt it.

Now, do you have any other questions that may need answered or anything constructive and polite to say? If not, I think its time this debate be ended and we all move along our happy ways. I have to deal enough with people exactly like you when I'm not on the internet, the last thing I come on here for is debates about everything except things specifically related to fish.
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Queequeg
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Joined: 08 Nov 2010
Location: Georgia, USA

PostPosted: 2010.11.21(Sun)20:37    Post subject: is there a "poll" forum here? Reply with quote

I'd like to see a vote. is anybody really dechlorinating, pre-heating, and doing 50% water changes, daily?

I've read a few books on the subject, and its suggested all over the place that 10% weekly changes are sufficient, so 50% daily sounds fanatical. I do more than the minimum, but I'm not even home every day to do that. I'm not promoting the stunting of fish, that's foolish. what a campaign! "down with full-grown fish!"?? really, folks?

ty, jack, for your advice. like I said, he's looking better, and at this point, I still can't catch the little stinker, and he's got a tank waiting on him.

I'll say it again, you send a tank, I'll move some fish into it.

that, my friend, was a spelling error. we know what you meant, and you spelled it wrong. "swimming pool" or "bread" would be the wrong word, but you just spelled "their" wrong. chuck darwin should be capitalized, but I didn't. my bad. so should the first word of each sentence, and my own name, but I don't bother. that book has nothing to do with aquarists, its just a good read (and contains 150 yrs of new material, kind of a lot has happened), should you be able to peel your eyes from one of your many large televisions. go complain to mr ed, then, but I asked you nicely, and it is not your place to comment on my attitude. and you never answered the question. jack did. did you read joseph conrad? its probably my favorite (favourite) book. fyi- I prefer to play soccer (not misspelled, thats just what we call it stateside), but I think american football is a little more likely to be on at the bar (pub) on sunday (Sunday) afternoon. go falcons!

how awesome that we have a handy metric converter on the bottom of the screen!
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unissuh
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Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: 2010.11.21(Sun)20:50    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, 50% daily on my fry tank - but that amounts to only a few litres as it is a tiny tank. I do a weeklys on two other tanks and two more go months without changes.

Books on this hobby are a bit of a poor resource in both accuracy and content in my opinion. You (or the book authors!) might not be aware of it but it depends on the individual tanks how necessary water changes are - all setups are not equal. Fish load, plant load, tank volume & other factors like filtration & maturity of fish all matter. That aside, I don't actually see a post where someone has said to you that you must do a 50% change daily, it was simply a remark that daily 50%s are not uncommon on fry tanks and results in faster growth of fry and juveniles. Both true points that could help you grow your fish to adult size faster.
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katienaha
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Joined: 18 Dec 2009
Location: British Columbia, Canada

PostPosted: 2010.11.22(Mon)2:00    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally do a 25% water change weekly, and about a 4 gallon top up every 3 days or so (depending on the evaporation), and yes, I dechlorinate and match my water temperature each and every time I waterchange and top up the water levels. Due to my planting this keeps my nitrates at about 10ppm.

As for all the excess chatter in the posts, it is getting annoying. Please, everyone! Keep the attitude out of the posts. If you have a beef with someone, please PM them, or bust out a new thread in the Aqua Lounge. The more garbage that is in these posts, the more irrelevant they get.

Queeg - be nicer please (and relevant - big screen tvs have nothing to do with ideal fishkeeping). Rales is right, we are a very polite forum, and you are bringing out the worst in us.

We all strive to be helpful to each other, not challenging or rude or demeaning. But, if someone refuses to learn from the advice they are asking for, we all get a bit snippy.

As for everyone else - if you don't like this particular member's posts/ideas, please refrain from replying in the future. it will probably save your sanity.
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Caton
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Joined: 28 Jul 2009
Location: Washington State, USA

PostPosted: 2010.11.22(Mon)13:30    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've done 50% changes daily for about a month before, all because I cared for the well being of a ember tetra. The fish got better and I feel good because I saved tried the best in my being to help a creature that is basickly kept in a glass box against its will.

Have I killed a fish? Yes, I have had mistakes, I am sure everyone here has lost a fish, that doens't mean stop trying. I lost 8 fish in one day because I was dumb and left the fish in the bag longer than I should have because I didn't have time, or I didn't put the hood back on and they jumped.

We will all make mistake's but just because we know that murphys law will come true doesn't mean that we have to just have to think that since it is going to happen why try? This also appiles to thinigs outside of the hobby. I see one of my dogs is sick and is going to die, I don't just leave it, I try to help it.

This forum is very friendly. I don't dechlorinate simply because there is no need to in my area. I get my water from a well. If somebody in say seattle didn't his fish would die.

I pre-heat my water because it doesn't stress the fish as much. I have seen some people on here be rude in my 1.5 years on being on here (that is not that much compared to other people) and you have by far been number one on the list for most rude.

Now you can change your attitude to the way we know is right and that has been tested or you can find a different forum. Please by all means stay, we want you to learn to care for fish properly, but this is not how we do things here. We are a community and some know more than others but we politely say we disagree with something and normally a discussion ends with one having more proof and evidence rather than opinon. I hope you stay...but with a different way of thinking rather than this come-back "I'm right your wrong" mode.
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KhiaraFish
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Joined: 18 Aug 2010
Location: Saint Paul, MN

PostPosted: 2010.11.22(Mon)14:07    Post subject: Reply with quote

I currently have a guppy with fin rot in a quarantine tank, on which I am doing 50% daily changes, and yes, this tank is much smaller than 100+ gallons, but I am doing it for the health of my fish, the same reason you should be on your tank. It was your choice to buy that many fish, and to get that size of tank, and by doing so you take responsibility for the lives of those fish.

I think that now if anybody has anymore to say, it should be discussed via PM, or in the site issues section, and that we should stop this argument, because it no longer follows the guidelines of the forum.
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