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want to ask about "stunted" fish
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Queequeg
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Joined: 08 Nov 2010
Location: Georgia, USA

PostPosted: 2010.11.13(Sat)17:51    Post subject: want to ask about "stunted" fish Reply with quote

some of my fish are growing incredibly fast, others hardly at all. it has been difficult for me to find good info on growth rates. I also wonder if some weren't "stunted" in the store or even before.

I have a 3" bichir who has grown only about 1/2 inch in 6-7 months. the tail has gotten longer, but the new growth seems to be thin, almost see thru. now I'm seeing juv's in the store that are longer and thicker than he is.

there is a problem feeding him, tho he's hardly starved. he's in a big tank, and only gets what happens to fall to the bottom, and then he's only got a few seconds before the pictus cats come and hoover it all up.

should I take him out of there and try to spoil him? will he ever reach that 10-12" I hear about? is it just a SLOW grower?

speaking of pictus- I "rescued" 3 from wal-mart (the ones around here usually have just as many dead fish as alive in their tanks). 2 have grown steadily, the other has grown very little, if at all. also, with all the conflicting info, how big do pictus really get? I was hoping they'd get to 8", but some say they max out at 5.5"
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rales12
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Joined: 03 Nov 2009
Location: Wyoming

PostPosted: 2010.11.13(Sat)18:08    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately, I don't know much about stunted fish, and I couldn't find much information about it online when I tried to look it up a couple months ago. I could find definitions of what stunting was and how it happened, but no sites seemed to be able to tell me the long term effects, besides death if left too crowded for too long.

Growth rates differ from fish to fish, of course, but I think most of them are related to water temperature to some degree. Warmer water = faster growth rate and vise versa. Diet probably plays some part in it, too.

As for pictuses... I just recently discovered that there is more than one kind of pictus! Smile If you can ID which species you have, you can probably be more clear on how big they'll get.
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diademhill
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Joined: 18 Apr 2007

PostPosted: 2010.11.14(Sun)3:30    Post subject: Re: want to ask about "stunted" fish Reply with quote

Queequeg wrote:
some of my fish are growing incredibly fast, others hardly at all. it has been difficult for me to find good info on growth rates. I also wonder if some weren't "stunted" in the store or even before.

I have a 3" bichir who has grown only about 1/2 inch in 6-7 months. the tail has gotten longer, but the new growth seems to be thin, almost see thru. now I'm seeing juv's in the store that are longer and thicker than he is.

there is a problem feeding him, tho he's hardly starved. he's in a big tank, and only gets what happens to fall to the bottom, and then he's only got a few seconds before the pictus cats come and hoover it all up.

should I take him out of there and try to spoil him? will he ever reach that 10-12" I hear about? is it just a SLOW grower?

speaking of pictus- I "rescued" 3 from wal-mart (the ones around here usually have just as many dead fish as alive in their tanks). 2 have grown steadily, the other has grown very little, if at all. also, with all the conflicting info, how big do pictus really get? I was hoping they'd get to 8", but some say they max out at 5.5"


Several problems.

The bichir needs feeding - target feed him and make sure he gets the same amount of food as a cichlid the same length but it sounds like he is already damaged. The common species should grow from about 3"-4" (usual sale size) to about nine inches in their first year and reach a foot by three years - they can grow much larger.

Your tank is very overstocked so some are being stunted now.
Just the jag and catfish are all I would have in a tank with so little water volume. Eventually just the jag unless it is female.

Fish are rarely in store long enough for the effect to be permanent but many fry are stunted by people trying to save them and thinking small or tiny tanks are OK for baby fish so if you are taking on easy to breed fish that have been brought into the store there may be lasting effects from poor rearing.
What is your water change regime?
To grow fish you need optimum conditions and lots of fresh water. I used to grow male guppies to sale size in four months, Oscars and angels in six weeks. I used daily 50% water changes and large grow out tanks.

There is only one species of Pimelodus pictus but several others of the genus mistakenly get labelled as pictus by shops. they are voracious feeders as you have found out.
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Queequeg
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Joined: 08 Nov 2010
Location: Georgia, USA

PostPosted: 2010.11.14(Sun)20:16    Post subject: thank you Reply with quote

"little volume"? how do you know how big my tank is? I guess you've read my other posts.

to answer your question, I change 20G every ten days. that's the plan, but it's honestly usually more than that, because I have enough buckets for 40G, and I just eyeball it when draining out the window, and always have water left.

holy cow! 50% daily? that would take too much of my time, and the water would barely get to temperature before I changed it, the fish would be stressed, DAILY.

I know I'll have to move some out of the tank eventually, but "one inch/one gallon" rule says I got room to spare. just the jag and the cats? IF they get to 8"- 8x3=24 + (pretty sure its a male, 16) = 40" in a 100+G of water? also, if I do get rid of fish, the cats would be some of the 1st to go.

I agree with you that the bichir is not well. couldn't find him today, actually, but I assume he's still there. target feed? how? again, my question: should I remove the bichir? I have a 20G "sick tank" I'm not using now.
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katienaha
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Joined: 18 Dec 2009
Location: British Columbia, Canada

PostPosted: 2010.11.14(Sun)21:56    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
holy cow! 50% daily? that would take too much of my time, and the water would barely get to temperature before I changed it, the fish would be stressed, DAILY.

I know I'll have to move some out of the tank eventually, but "one inch/one gallon" rule says I got room to spare.


you should be matching your temperature when you do water changes to reduce that stress in the first place.

Please see the sites "http://www.aquahobby.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=20742 Position on stunting, stocking and other concerns" before talking to us about the one inch of fish per gallon 'rule'.

Otherwise, I don't have an answer for you.
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rales12
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Joined: 03 Nov 2009
Location: Wyoming

PostPosted: 2010.11.15(Mon)10:09    Post subject: Reply with quote

The one inch of fish per gallon of water is best used for small tetras. Other fish have other things to take into account, like how much strain they're going to add to the bioload. Plecos, oscars, and goldfish are messy fish and definitely can't use the inch per gallon "rule".
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Jack
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Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Location: Newcastle, England

PostPosted: 2010.11.20(Sat)7:54    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to agree that you're very overstocked in there. Whilst there may be loads of physical swimming room the bioload produced by so many massive and messy fish will be really bad for all of the livestock in the tank.

I'd be tempted to move the birchir to the 20G so he is by himself. If he's still quite small then the tank size shouldn't be an issue temporarily and you can get him back up to health beofre reintroducing him to the bigger tank.
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Queequeg
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Joined: 08 Nov 2010
Location: Georgia, USA

PostPosted: 2010.11.21(Sun)0:50    Post subject: yeah, OK Reply with quote

its overstocked, but only the 2" gourami is full grown. other fish will get other tanks soon enough. I test my water often and have no probs. the tank is 125G and both filters are rated for 100G. 40oz of biomax goes a long way. they are not overfed. and I had planned on the jag eating some of them by now, he just hasn't. weird how they pick and choose. he's eaten feeders much bigger than some of his tankmates.
I spent over an hour trying to catch the bichir, now he won't be caught. I did catch him once a few days ago, put him in the 20G, but the heater shattered (I don't know, prob too cold vs water when I turned it on)so I had to put him back in the big tank while I cleaned up the glass and got another heater.
he's the only one I was concerned about. I've been using more flakes lately. I use a lot all at once, it makes a cloud of food and excitement, and he comes to the top and eats better than he has been. his color is better. from what I read, theyre almost blind, and just never find the sinkers fast enough to get a fair share, not with those pictus around (and my pictus never come up to the surface).

as far as storing, pre-heating, dechlorinating 60G of water per day- sorry, turn me in to the fish police, but I won't do it unless someone paid me to. they are healthy enough to suit me, and I treat my fish better than people in traffic treat me, so I pat myself on the back. let's be honest about our place in the world as a species. everything we do, we do it strictly on our own terms. its not nice to cut down rainforest and burn fossil fuel, but we do. no fish in a glass box is in "optimal conditions". neither is a dog in an apartment, a man in a cell, a horse on a farm, a monkey in a zoo, et cetera, ad nauseum. sorry to get deep on ya, but that's how I feel. read "heart of darkness" by joseph conrad- we are pure evil. know it. embrace it. but don't kid yourself about "humane" treatment of animals.
my advice: be kind to one another and throw away your tv.
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diademhill
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Joined: 18 Apr 2007

PostPosted: 2010.11.21(Sun)3:13    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
ts overstocked, but only the 2" gourami is full grown. other fish will get other tanks soon enough.

The blue gourami in your photo should be over 4" at full grown.
Soon enough is now!
Quote:
the tank is 125G and both filters are rated for 100G. 40oz of biomax goes a long way

Have you worked out the water volume yet?
85 gallons perhaps? 95 tops?
Quote:
I test my water often and have no probs

What nitrate readings occur?
Quote:
I had planned on the jag eating some of them by now, he just hasn't. weird how they pick and choose. he's eaten feeders much bigger than some of his tankmates.

Feeders are a poor food source and a pathogen risk. Many fish will ignore fish they grow up with but kill newcomers.

Quote:
as far as storing, pre-heating, dechlorinating 60G of water per day- sorry, turn me in to the fish police, but I won't do it unless someone paid me to. they are healthy enough to suit me


So you can't be bothered - nice attitude
Rolling Eyes

This tank will not work long term and the fish are already not going to live there normal lifespan.
Start rehoming as you won't be getting more tanks as that will man more water changes.
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Queequeg
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Joined: 08 Nov 2010
Location: Georgia, USA

PostPosted: 2010.11.21(Sun)16:43    Post subject: lordy, lordy Reply with quote

where to begin... OK, I'll forgive the spelling errors (their) and get to your questions, even though you don't answer mine.
I love that you quote me. thank you, I feel famous.
the gourami is of no concern to me, it initially cycled the tank and is meant as eventual food for the first to kill it. she is, however very healthy, if small (2and a half to 3" is more accurate).
"soon enough" means when I get to it. I'm the owner/human. if you want to send me an extra tank, I'll give you my address.
yeah, ~90G seems about right. did you have a point? if you're referring to the "60G of water changes", keep in mind my 14G and see-thru 20G. (45+5+10=60)
tested today, and it's been a week since I changed any water. nitrates are ten ppm.
feeders are what they are. fish eat fish. the vast majority of fish to ever grace the planet were consumed by other fish. I also feed them 3 types of flakes, fresh vegetables, floaters, sinkers, glassworms, bloodworms, brineshrimp, tubifex, daphnia, beefheart and crickets.
please don't talk to me about my attitude. please talk to your mom or your therapist if it bothers you. not at all your business or the place to comment.
long term the tank won't work- and I'm pretty sure I made that clear myself.
so, "advisor", do you take advice, too? you read that book? how's your big-screen?
also check out "99% ape" by jonathan silvertown, et al. U of Chicago press. it's pretty super, and much easier to read than darwin. gotta go watch some american football, now. have a good one
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