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Nova_C
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Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Location: Calgary, AB

PostPosted: 2010.08.13(Fri)9:47    Post subject: Reply with quote

rales12 wrote:
But the testimonials of the parents who SWEAR that their child (who were about the age that mine is now) became autistic after getting a vaccine is definitely unsettling, no matter how many scientists insist that there is no possible way that that's how it happened


While this sentiment is understandable, it's also very, very dangerous. Letting an emotional response carry as much weight as scientific, peer-reviewed study in determining one's beliefs leads to exactly what's been going on with the vaccine debacle (I refuse to call it a debate - one side of it has nothing but misinformation and rhetoric to provide).

This board is a great example of a place where people curbstomp those who have exactly the attitude I quoted when it comes to fishkeeping. "Oh, I've kept these blood parrots in this 20 gallon tank for years and I will continue to do so no matter how many experts insist that I'm wrong." (I use this example only because one of my clerk's uncles is doing exactly this).

People have stopped vaccinating their children because of an aggressive emotional campaign that had absolutely no scientific backing, but got a lot of people scared. Well, great. Millions died to small pox before the vaccine was invented. We have essentially eradicated the disease. Let's bring it back because of a tenuous, repeatedly disproven link between vaccines and autism! "I know better than the billions poured into vaccine research, the scientists and doctors who went to school for 20 goddamn years and the fact that vaccines are given to nearly the whole population but still a very small demographic have autism! I'm an actress!"

This is a very dangerous mentality that could and will lead to real people suffering that don't have to.
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rales12
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Joined: 03 Nov 2009
Location: Wyoming

PostPosted: 2010.08.13(Fri)14:10    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nova_C wrote:
rales12 wrote:
But the testimonials of the parents who SWEAR that their child (who were about the age that mine is now) became autistic after getting a vaccine is definitely unsettling, no matter how many scientists insist that there is no possible way that that's how it happened


While this sentiment is understandable, it's also very, very dangerous. Letting an emotional response carry as much weight as scientific, peer-reviewed study in determining one's beliefs leads to exactly what's been going on with the vaccine debacle (I refuse to call it a debate - one side of it has nothing but misinformation and rhetoric to provide).

People have stopped vaccinating their children because of an aggressive emotional campaign that had absolutely no scientific backing, but got a lot of people scared. Well, great. Millions died to small pox before the vaccine was invented. We have essentially eradicated the disease. Let's bring it back because of a tenuous, repeatedly disproven link between vaccines and autism! "I know better than the billions poured into vaccine research, the scientists and doctors who went to school for 20 goddamn years and the fact that vaccines are given to nearly the whole population but still a very small demographic have autism! I'm an actress!"

This is a very dangerous mentality that could and will lead to real people suffering that don't have to.


I am all for vaccinations. I encourage everybody I know with children to get their children vaccinated as well. Whatever happens to cause autism in children at the age of 2 is unsettling. The fact that there is an unknown something out there causing autism is unsettling. I don't blame vaccinations, though I can see how my statement may have made it seem like that. Rolling Eyes I trust scientists to know what they're talking about, and I would never assume to know more than somebody who's educated in their field.

What scares me is that something is happening to these children at the same time that they receive a vaccination, and scientists insist it is not the vaccination causing it. I believe them. But until they can tell us WHAT is causing it, the fact that it is somehow correlated with a vaccine (that is - it occurs at the same time as a vaccine) is what unsettles me. I believe the scientists. But I also know that tons of people don't come forward with the same story of how their young child became autistic without there being SOMETHING to the story. It is not the vaccinations that are directly causing autism in healthy children. So what is happening at that same time that is causing it?

Sadly, the general population is more apt to listen to emotion than logic. Have you ever tried talking sense into an angry person? Personally, I'm terrified of moths. Harmless little flying moths. And no matter how many people have tried to prove to me that moths are harmless, I remain absolutely terrified of them. I KNOW that little but can't hurt me, and I KNOW that it has its place on this planet too. But I had a nightmare once about moths, and to this day, no amount of logic (mine, or anybody else's) and no amount of teasing have been able to override my completely emotional response. That is how people are responding the 'autism is caused by vaccines' argument. They are scared. Terrified. Parents want their child to grow up perfect. And even though there are loads of published studies that prove that vaccines are not what is causing autism, and even though there are people who mock the ones who are scared... it doesn't eliminate the fear. And I think people are so scared of learning that their child is autistic from some unknown cause, that they are going to also be scared of the only thing that anybody has been able to come up with so far, even if its been disproved.

I am scared of autism, but I am not so scared of autism that the proof is drowned out by my emotion.

And if any of you are wondering ... No. I'm not scared of butterflies.
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rales12
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Joined: 03 Nov 2009
Location: Wyoming

PostPosted: 2010.08.13(Fri)14:21    Post subject: Reply with quote

katienaha wrote:
I have a friend with Asperger's syndrome (a higher functioning form of autism) and in 5 years I have seen him go from desolate and unresponsive to the world (simply incapable of involving himself) to jumping at every opportunity to get involved (arts festivals, camping trips, kayaking, etc,) and he wants to join us at every opportunity, and it is incredible. He has been able to describe his brain to me, because he's been able to get past the things that held him back for so long, and since he knows I am genuinely interested, he talks about it.
He said to me that his brain is not slow by any means. It is actually too fast. It is so fast, that it hears the light bulb buzzing, it sees the computer screen flickering, it hears the teacher in the classroom down the hall cursing at the DVD player under her breath, it sees the young man behind him at the back of the lecture theatre crying because his dog died that morning. It sees, hears, smells, and processes EVERYTHING. It can't not. The autistic brain doesn't know HOW to seperate.

When you speak to someone with autism, they need a moment to seperate the words you just said to them (sometimes they need you to repeat, just so they can be sure they got it all), and then they need their brain to do something about what you just said, as in respond/react. Then it has to figure out that since it needs to react, what does that reaction need to be? You asked him to get you a glass of water. Were you angry? Were you sad? Were you simply stating a need? Is that need urgent? Oh no! Are you severely dehydrated?!? No.. you are simply thirsty, this is his home, and you would like some water. OK, so he gets you some water. Thank you!


Katie -- thank you for sharing this. I only know a couple of autistic people myself, and I definitely didn't know that about how their brains work. I especially didn't know that about Asperger's.
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unissuh
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Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: 2010.08.13(Fri)18:16    Post subject: Reply with quote

rales12 wrote:
What scares me is that something is happening to these children at the same time that they receive a vaccination, and scientists insist it is not the vaccination causing it. I believe them. But until they can tell us WHAT is causing it, the fact that it is somehow correlated with a vaccine (that is - it occurs at the same time as a vaccine) is what unsettles me. I believe the scientists. But I also know that tons of people don't come forward with the same story of how their young child became autistic without there being SOMETHING to the story. It is not the vaccinations that are directly causing autism in healthy children. So what is happening at that same time that is causing it?


Problem is it's not actually correlated with a vaccine at all - I think various studies have pretty much proved this point. It is true that we don't know exactly what is causing it; pretty big problem considering the rates of autism are actually increasing...

What you say about the autistic cases that are not "linked" to anything not generating any media attention is true though, problem is because nobody hears about these cases they assume the debate is more even than it actually is. IMO this is a major problem with mass media, an equal amount of time is spent between opinions no matter how weak the case is for one of them.

Caton wrote:
Just read the ingredients:
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/13516797/H1N1-Vaccine-Ingredients


I am fairly sure that list is wrong - there should be no "aborted baby tissue" or adjuvants of any sort (e.g. Squalene) in 'flu vaccines.

The "aborted baby tissue" referred to is probably due to the method some vaccines are produced. Viruses have to live inside host (e.g. human) cells, there is no way to grow them otherwise. So called "aborted baby tissue" probably refers to cells that were originally derived from an embryo or foetus that were extracted, purified and grown in a dish for generations and generations (foetal or embryo cells are very good for growing in a dish, regular cells taken from an adult will typically just die in synthetic culture) - it is not really "baby tissue" anymore. The amount that actually gets through the purification procedures and into the vaccine would be ridiculously minute. The whole point of using cells in culture is so these viruses don't actually have to be grown inside live animals which would result in a hell of a lot of laboratory animal culls to produce enough virus.

Caton wrote:
Quote:
Thimerosal, a mercury derivative, is added as a preservative. Each dose contains 25 mcg mercury. Each dose may also contain residual amounts of egg proteins (≤1 mcg ovalbumin), formaldehyde (≤25 mcg), and sodium deoxycholate (≤50 mcg). Antibiotics are not used in the manufacture of this vaccine.


Thimerosal has not been used in the US for several years to my knowledge, it was removed from all the vaccines so you guys don't have to worry about that one.

To echo Darkblade, that stuff is stretching the limits of detection - 25mcg is 0.000025 grams. It really depends what your definition of 0 is, could go to 1/1000th of a gram and it would still be rounded to 0.

katienaha wrote:
I worked with a lady who died at the age of 43 from MS. 3 years before her death, her husband was diagnosed with it. She is a caucasian woman who was born and raised in Canada, her husband was African, born and raised there, and moved to Canada 20 years ago. They come from very different genetic lineage, but they wound up with the same disease. With my aunt, I believe there is a familial link, but not directly. My sister has epilepsy, my grandmother has parkinsons - all of these are neurological diseases.


Problem is we're not sure what causes MS, but as with many of these mystery diseases, it is probably a combination of an individual's genetics, the environment they live in, and possibly an infectious factor (bacteria or virus). Funnily enough it's associated with a certain type of recognition molecule on immune cells (one that acts to detect targets for immune cells), and also various infectious diseases (e.g. MMR).

There is some support for toxins causing autism, but I have to say that it is probably not a vaccine. There is just no evidence to support the link and plenty to support no link.

katienaha wrote:
Now, I did not get any of my information from widipedia or any of those other sources - I get my information from the parents, the kids themselves, and from my own perceptions. I don't give a rats a** about some of these studies, because to me, they are so different, who do you believe?


IMO this is a very dangerous approach to making up your mind. It goes back to what I said above, that media attention to an issue is not weighted proportionally to how strong the case is for a particular side and this is very misleading to the general public. No matter how persuasive a parent of an autistic child that has, for example, had the MMR, they have no proof, simply an opinion.

katienaha wrote:
Back to vaccines - the herd theory of having the majority immune: If I chose to not get vaccinated, would I not fall into the "unimmunized" group that would eventaully become immune due to this theory? What if I came into contact with small amount of this virus during my time at work perhaps, and it did make it into my system, and due to the small amount of virus (because of handwashing) my body could handle it, and therefore it would be the same effect as actually getting a vaccination??


You wouldn't become immune, a large enough proportion of the population would become immune that the disease would die out. Encountering the pathogen in small quantities is pretty much like a vaccination, except here you are playing with fire whereas vaccines and drugs jump through ridiculous hoops to try and ensure they are safe - it costs $2 billion and 10+ years of trials before any new product filters through.

I think one problem is that people never consider exactly what will happen if they contract the disease. The risk to oneself with 'flu is very minimal, but what about all the other people that you could potentially pass it to? How many babies, elderly and immunocompromised people would you come in contact with while infectious? These people would be pretty susceptible to serious disease which could actually be fatal, whoever passed it to them is probably fine and never considered who they passed it to.

katienaha wrote:
An example I like to think is interesting (and sort of gross) is people who sweat, and leave brown stains on their clothing and sheets. I know of 2 people who do this - my close friend, and my boyfriend. Fact of life is, I buy dark sheets, and he doesn't wear white shirts. He has got to be THE healthiest person I know. In the 6 years I have been with him, I believe I can recall 3 colds that knocked him on his butt for 2-4 days. But, no longer. Why on earth would his sweat stain things brown like that, without it having toxins in it? I don't know of him having any health concerns, while his family is riddled with this or that.


I have to say that brown sweat may look disgusting but probably has absolutely 0 relation to common respiratory disease. Just because something is gross doesn't mean it's going to make you sick. Laughing
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rales12
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Joined: 03 Nov 2009
Location: Wyoming

PostPosted: 2010.08.14(Sat)3:38    Post subject: Reply with quote

unissuh wrote:
It is true that we don't know exactly what is causing it; pretty big problem considering the rates of autism are actually increasing...

This is what the rate is at, as of December 2009. Last I knew, it was at 1 in every 150... so its definitely rising. Sad
Quote:
Autism Society wrote:
In December 2009, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention issued their ADDM autism prevalence report. The report concluded that the prevalence of autism had risen to 1 in every 110 births in the United States and almost 1 in 70 boys.

Link

unissuh wrote:
What you say about the autistic cases that are not "linked" to anything not generating any media attention is true though, problem is because nobody hears about these cases they assume the debate is more even than it actually is. IMO this is a major problem with mass media, an equal amount of time is spent between opinions no matter how weak the case is for one of them.

And its not just the media's fault. People do not educate themselves about anything, and just believe what they are told. You want to believe the side that has something to blame, not the logical side that is searching for answers but has none (yet). I don't know if decreasing the amount of time spent on the vaccine-autism-link argument would change that.
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Fern
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Joined: 26 May 2009
Location: SW Florida

PostPosted: 2010.08.14(Sat)4:17    Post subject: Reply with quote

unissuh wrote:
I think one problem is that people never consider exactly what will happen if they contract the disease. The risk to oneself with 'flu is very minimal, but what about all the other people that you could potentially pass it to? How many babies, elderly and immunocompromised people would you come in contact with while infectious? These people would be pretty susceptible to serious disease which could actually be fatal, whoever passed it to them is probably fine and never considered who they passed it to.


And that's the reason my bf children and I got the N1H1 vaccine, my mother is old and has COPD along with many other issues, I got it for her not me Laughing
I believe that's the only flu vaccine I have ever gotten, if I do get sick I stay home and try not to pass it on.
I played in the dirt and mud a lot when I was younger and I'm sure that exposed me to minute amounts of lots of bad bacteria and viruses and such. So far I have a pretty good immune system and don't catch too many colds and bugs. So I now encourage my kids to play in the dirt and mud in the back yard, I think its great for them!

Oh and sense we are talking about vaccines and such, is 5 & 7 good ages to expose kids to chicken pox? I would rather have them get it when they are young and I'm ready for it Laughing Just not sure on the best age....
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Darkblade48
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Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Location: Yokohama, Japan

PostPosted: 2010.08.14(Sat)6:18    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got chicken pox when I was around 6, and then my sister got it about a year later (when she was 4).

Do note that there is also a Varicella (chickenpox) vaccine that is available nowadays.

Better to get chickenpox when you are young, rather than when you are older, where complications (such as shingles) can arise.
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katienaha
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Joined: 18 Dec 2009
Location: British Columbia, Canada

PostPosted: 2010.08.14(Sat)7:16    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unissuh: what I mean in regards to the sweating.. is that hes NOT sick. and rarely ever gets sick. I am not saying that the sweat makes other people sick.. but my thoughts are that if hes capable of sweating out toxins, hes better able to stay healthy if hes not overloaded with stuff his body can't handle.. thus staying healthier.
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rales12
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Joined: 03 Nov 2009
Location: Wyoming

PostPosted: 2010.08.14(Sat)7:22    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darkblade48 wrote:
Do note that there is also a Varicella (chickenpox) vaccine that is available nowadays.


They vaccinate babies for chicken pox anymore, actually (at least, at the doctor's office my son goes to, they do). I believe my son received it when he was 9mos old.

My mom got me the chicken pox vaccination when I was around ten because I hadn't contracted it yet (despite exposure) and the vaccination had recently become available and the pediatrician encouraged her to get me vaccinated since I was getting older.

Fern wrote:
I played in the dirt and mud a lot when I was younger and I'm sure that exposed me to minute amounts of lots of bad bacteria and viruses and such. So far I have a pretty good immune system and don't catch too many colds and bugs. So I now encourage my kids to play in the dirt and mud in the back yard, I think its great for them!

This makes me feel like such a better parent. XD I always feel kind of weird when I'm encouraging my son to play outside in the dirt and stuff, because its counterintuitive. Not even because of germs or anything, but because of how messy it is. I figured I was the only parent out there anymore who wanted their kid to try eating dirt a couple of times! Laughing
I intentionally don't use things like Lysol wipes and other sanitizers when I'm cleaning around the house (except in the toilet) because I really do believe there is such a thing as too clean. I don't sanitize my son's pacifier if it falls on the floor for a second, and I only ever cleaned his bottle nipples in dish water. If he drops a cracker on the floor... I still let him eat it. Rolling Eyes
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Fern
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Joined: 26 May 2009
Location: SW Florida

PostPosted: 2010.08.15(Sun)12:51    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fully agree! Kids grow up much healthier if there is some dirt in their diet! When kids spent the day time out playing in the woods and getting filthy there were less health issues!
Both of my kids are mildly allergic to mosquito bites, I don't use bug spray on them the more they get bit the better their immune system will handle it the next time! I do have jugs of calamine on hand though Wink
I think this is how most of these strange allergy's developed, too many parents freaking out about a mild reaction, they kept their kids away from the cause and then by the time said kid grows up its a serious issue.
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