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katienaha
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Joined: 18 Dec 2009
Location: British Columbia, Canada

PostPosted: 2010.08.12(Thu)15:16    Post subject: Vaccines/biology/other interesting medical related topics Reply with quote

SO, here's my beef with vaccinations. I agree with them (mostly).

However, with some of them, sure, they work, but they are not always necessary for everyone. Take the H1N1 vaccine. I did not get it, I work in the health care field, and often with medically delicate people.

I washed my hands at LEAST once an hour while on the job, at home, etc. Yes, I had chapped hands (carried around lotion once that started happening), but I also washed them when I felt they were contaminated (ie, I just went grocery shopping).

I did not get this flu. Actually, last winter, I did not even get a common cold. I actually havent been sick at all since May 2009. I got one flu shot in my life, and it was before nursing school.

I also work with people with developmental disabilities. Many of these people have autism, and there are many parents out there who will swear up and down that vaccines caused their child's autism. In my opinion, I feel that it isnt the vaccine's fault, but it is the body's ability to rid itself of the mercury/metals in the vaccine. I understand that mercury poisoning has similar symptoms to the onset of autism in a 2 year old. This scares me. It doesn't mean that when I have children they will not get vaccinated, the pros outweigh the cons, but I wonder why there is mercury in there in the first place. There must be a better solution.
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Last edited by katienaha on 2010.08.15(Sun)15:53; edited 1 time in total
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rales12
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Joined: 03 Nov 2009
Location: Wyoming

PostPosted: 2010.08.12(Thu)16:33    Post subject: Re: Vaccines/biology (unissuh!) Reply with quote

katienaha wrote:
I also work with people with developmental disabilities. Many of these people have autism, and there are many parents out there who will swear up and down that vaccines caused their child's autism. In my opinion, I feel that it isnt the vaccine's fault, but it is the body's ability to rid itself of the mercury/metals in the vaccine. I understand that mercury poisoning has similar symptoms to the onset of autism in a 2 year old. This scares me. It doesn't mean that when I have children they will not get vaccinated, the pros outweigh the cons, but I wonder why there is mercury in there in the first place. There must be a better solution.

As a mother to a perfectly healthy 14 month old... the tie between autism and vaccines terrifies me. Horrifies me. Whatever that link is, however it happens... its one of the scariest parts of his life right now. Yes, he's still getting his vaccines. But until he's a couple of years older... every vaccine he gets is going to make me nervous.

Sure, vaccines have their good points... but if they lead to autism in any way in children... then they come at a heavy cost.
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unissuh
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Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: 2010.08.12(Thu)19:59    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boy, I think this might just open a huge can of worms! Laughing

I guess the first thing to say is that if you do not get a vaccine shot and you don't get the 'flu, it's not really something one can conclude anything from - you may have a particularly strong immune system, you may have had subclinical infections (that gave you some sort of immunity while remaining asymptomatic), you may just have not encountered the virus. This is where one needs to analyse the incidence of large groups of people (I.e. epidemiology) to see whether the vaccine is actually having an effect. That said, the 'flu vaccine undeniably works - it reduces 'flu incidence by ~70-90% depending on the study.

One thing to remember with vaccines is that if you are immune, you are not just protecting yourself, you are protecting the community. If you think of your community as a large web; each person is a node & are connected to each other by strands. The virus can only pass from person to person; the more people are immunised, the less the virus is going to spread and ultimately once enough people are immune to the particular virus it won't spread (even to the remaining proportion of people that are *not* immune). This is typically referred to as "herd immunity", not a whole population needs to be immune to wipe out a disease.

Regarding autism and vaccines, I take it you are largely referring to the MMR (measles, mumps & Rubella) vaccine as this was basically the vaccine that triggered it all. I wish I could think of a better way to say it - but essentially your fears are groundless, there is no evidence to support a link & I very strongly recommend you get your kids to take the vaccine. Wikipedia is not the most accurate source of information but it is largely correct on the MMR controversy. If you want to get slightly more technical, here is a nice simple review summarizing the studies performed (I could summarise it, but it'd be easier and more informative if you just read it yourself). I could put it this way - do you believe one article which looked at 12 autistic children or do you believe multiple large scale studies which collectively involved millions of people?

AFAIK there are no metals in the vaccines themselves - it has to do with the preservative to keep the vaccine stable. I'm not all that familiar with this topic to be honest, but from what I understand it is very similar to the MMR scare. The bulk of the evidence to support a link between the mercury containing preservative (thimerosal) and autism was provided by a single set of authors publishing multiple articles and other groups which have done similar epidemiological studies have largely failed to find any association. There is a recent review here (click the top right button for the pdf) that sums up previous work and essentially concludes that there is no link between the preservative & autism. Note that there certainly is a link between mercury and autism, however most of the sources of mercury poisoning that are associated with neurological disorders are chronic, not a single acute dose like a vaccine.

Don't take my word for it - look at the review articles I have linked you to and have a flick through first. Very Happy

EDIT: Corrected thimerosal link.
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Last edited by unissuh on 2010.08.13(Fri)17:35; edited 1 time in total
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Darkblade48
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Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Location: Yokohama, Japan

PostPosted: 2010.08.13(Fri)1:50    Post subject: Reply with quote

As someone that works in a field closely related to healthcare (microbiology/immunology), I agree with what unissuh has said.

The relationship between the MMR vaccine and autism cannot even be considered tenuous, as there simply is no relationship. Unfortunately, people (scientists included!) will erroneously jump to conclusions based on correlation, which is a dangerous action in itself.

A very absurd example: Every time I pass by a fire, I see a fire truck. The larger the fire, the more fire trucks there are. Therefore, fire trucks cause fires.

Obviously, one can see that this "conclusion" is absurd. The same can go for a lot of things that are often said about autism and vaccinations.

That being said, I get all my mandatory vaccines, as occupational health services requires that all employees keep up to date with vaccines Razz
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Caton
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Joined: 28 Jul 2009
Location: Washington State, USA

PostPosted: 2010.08.13(Fri)3:00    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not get my vaccines (other than tetanus...).

AND I MAKE SURE I DO NOT GET THE COMMON FLU VIRUS OR H1N1 VIRUS.

Reason being is this:


Just read the ingredients:
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/13516797/H1N1-Vaccine-Ingredients

Quote:
Formaldehyde- Formalyn (formalin) is a 37 percent solution of
gaseous formaldehyde which includes methanol. (Used in vaccines
as a tissue fixative) Formaldehyde solution (formalin) is considered a
hazardous compound and it is vapor toxic.


Quote:
Thimerosal- a form of mercury still found in some multi-vile vaccines.


Quote:
Squalene- An oil based adjuvant that has never been approved in the
US as safe, can cause blindness, autoimmune dysfunction and can
inhibit sperm production. More than two dozen peer-reviewed
scientific papers from ten different laboratories throughout the U.S.,
Europe, Asia, and Australia have been published documenting the
development of autoimmune disease in animals subjected to squalene-based adjuvants. Novartis will make a flu vaccine using
MF59 consisting of Squalene, Tween 80 - A recent study (December
2005) discovered that Tween80 can cause anaphylaxis, a sometimes
fatal reaction characterized by a sharp drop in blood pressure, hives,
and breathing difficulties.


Quote:
Human Diploid Tissue- organ and tissue from aborted baby tissue is
now used in manufacturing many vaccines


Quote:
2001 a bill was passed that totally protects any vaccine manufacture
free of all liability from injury or death!


Now I don't know about you guys but I don't want dead baby injected into my body.
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rales12
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Joined: 03 Nov 2009
Location: Wyoming

PostPosted: 2010.08.13(Fri)3:14    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darkblade48 wrote:
The relationship between the MMR vaccine and autism cannot even be considered tenuous, as there simply is no relationship. Unfortunately, people (scientists included!) will erroneously jump to conclusions based on correlation, which is a dangerous action in itself.

A very absurd example: Every time I pass by a fire, I see a fire truck. The larger the fire, the more fire trucks there are. Therefore, fire trucks cause fires.


First I want to say I'm not in any healthcare field at all. Laughing I don't study autism, and I don't study vaccines. So my "knowledge" on all of this is purely what I have read from parents who swear up and down that their perfectly normal, healthy child suddenly became autistic at around the age of two, which seemed to coincide with a vaccine that s/he received at around that time.

I know that some people are autistic from birth, which tells me that it has nothing to do with vaccines. My sister (who works with a LOT of autistic children) told me once that autistic kids have different brains. She said they don't know if their brains are different because they're autistic or if they're autistic because their brains are different. Hearing her say that relieves a certain amount of fear in my heart, because surely a vaccine doesn't have anything to do with that.

But the testimonials of the parents who SWEAR that their child (who were about the age that mine is now) became autistic after getting a vaccine is definitely unsettling, no matter how many scientists insist that there is no possible way that that's how it happened. As a parent, those stories are like somebody else telling how your worst nightmare happened to them. Its a scary thing to think about... losing the child with a good vocabulary and who is social to something that causes him to become withdrawn and just not the child he was less than a month before. Sure, he's still alive, and yes, you are going to love him until the bitter end... but I can only imagine you mourn the loss of your child every single day, despite it all.

That aside - I've read enough assurances from scientists that the vaccines have nothing to do with it that I feel pretty confident its not the cause. But I do think there is a correlation. Either something else happens right at around the time that children receive their MMR when they're 2, or they were "pre-destined" to become autistic anyway, which seems absurd... especially with the steep incline in the cases of autism. Something is causing it, and its something that we have now that they didn't used to have sixty years ago. Or there wasn't as much of.

And until my son is about three, I'll still worry about autism with every vaccine he gets, despite how convinced I am that they aren't the cause. Smile
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diademhill
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Joined: 18 Apr 2007

PostPosted: 2010.08.13(Fri)3:32    Post subject: Reply with quote

Caton, please check your references as you have linked to a site that gets it's content from a site called novaccines - hardly an unbiased source!
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Caton
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Joined: 28 Jul 2009
Location: Washington State, USA

PostPosted: 2010.08.13(Fri)5:55    Post subject: Reply with quote

diademhill wrote:
Caton, please check your references as you have linked to a site that gets it's content from a site called novaccines - hardly an unbiased source!


Yes I agree that this site is a biased, however this shows what the effects of the ingredients in the vaccine and everything listed are what the FDA says are in it. I do not care what the effects of a fetal baby does to me. I just want want that in me.

Maybe this is a more reliable source?
http://www.fda.gov/biologicsbloodvaccines/vaccines/questionsaboutvaccines/ucm186102.htm

Quote:
Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine, for intramuscular injection, is a homogenized, sterile, colorless to slightly opalescent suspension in a phosphate-bufbfered saline solution formulated to contain 15 mcg hemagglutinin per 0.5-mL dose of the influenza A/California/7/2009 (H1N1)v-like virus. Thimerosal, a mercury derivative, is added as a preservative. Each dose contains 25 mcg mercury. Each dose may also contain residual amounts of egg proteins (≤1 mcg ovalbumin), formaldehyde (≤25 mcg), and sodium deoxycholate (≤50 mcg). Antibiotics are not used in the manufacture of this vaccine.


However I was not able to find any source of Human Diploid Tissue or MCR5 in any of the vaccines. However I did find that it was in the vaccine for the first few months and then removed. I was not able to find a reliable source of this account however.
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Darkblade48
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Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Location: Yokohama, Japan

PostPosted: 2010.08.13(Fri)7:37    Post subject: Reply with quote

25 micrograms is equal to 0.000025 grams, and this is the maximal amount (for formaldehyde, at least). This is a very small amount.

Consider for thiomersal that the LD50 for an intravenous dosage in mice is 30 mg/kg (0.03 g/kg) . It can already be seen that the dose at which 50% lethality occurs is 1200 times more than the amount found in a single influenza shot.

Keep in mind that this is dependent on weight as well. 0.000025 grams in an "average" male patient (~60-65 kg) is insignificant.

Also keep in mind that the H1N1 vaccine (the one with the formulation you listed) was designed for children at least 2 years of age, meaning their weight would be more than that of a newborn as well.

Edit: On another note, thiomersal is only used in the flu vaccine, I believe. MMR, DPT, etc do not use it as a preservative.
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katienaha
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Joined: 18 Dec 2009
Location: British Columbia, Canada

PostPosted: 2010.08.13(Fri)9:25    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very valid points accross the board!!I love this stuff...

As for autism and vaccines.. I see it as MS and all the other "reasons" people get it. My aunt has MS - we don't know why. She also has a different form of MS that only about 2% get. She's had MS since she was about 14 (undiagnosed) and she is 51. She walks, goes to the gym, takes college classes to fill her time, but she cannot work, requires a nap or two a day, slurs her speech when she is tired, and has seizures.

I worked with a lady who died at the age of 43 from MS. 3 years before her death, her husband was diagnosed with it. She is a caucasian woman who was born and raised in Canada, her husband was African, born and raised there, and moved to Canada 20 years ago. They come from very different genetic lineage, but they wound up with the same disease.
With my aunt, I believe there is a familial link, but not directly. My sister has epilepsy, my grandmother has parkinsons - all of these are neurological diseases.

So in the sense of "causes" of autism.. it is probably a widespread issue. I believe it is the body's inability to rid itself of a poison that most every person is consuming somehow, but these particular people just can't get it out of their systems. This pay be a pesticide, this may be a heavy metal, this may be triggered by a vaccine as the dose is sudden, unexpected, and in a small child simply too much to handle at once.

Many parents with autism say that diet help the autism, some say it has zero effect. This to me, screams about the body's ability to process what you give it, and throw away what it doesn't find useful. Ever eaten vegetarian for 4-7 days? I bet you will feel better. (I am not vegetarian either, but I believe in it.)

There's stories of babies eating soy based formulas and cereals and developing what clearly appear to be breasts - the estrogen in the soy is too much for them. But another baby eating that product will not see any of this effect at all. Another clear example of what individual bodies can handle.

Now, I did not get any of my information from widipedia or any of those other sources - I get my information from the parents, the kids themselves, and from my own perceptions. I don't give a rats a** about some of these studies, because to me, they are so different, who do you believe?

I have a friend with Asperger's syndrome (a higher functioning form of autism) and in 5 years I have seen him go from desolate and unresponsive to the world (simply incapable of involving himself) to jumping at every opportunity to get involved (arts festivals, camping trips, kayaking, etc,) and he wants to join us at every opportunity, and it is incredible. He has been able to describe his brain to me, because he's been able to get past the things that held him back for so long, and since he knows I am genuinely interested, he talks about it.
He said to me that his brain is not slow by any means. It is actually too fast. It is so fast, that it hears the light bulb buzzing, it sees the computer screen flickering, it hears the teacher in the classroom down the hall cursing at the DVD player under her breath, it sees the young man behind him at the back of the lecture theatre crying because his dog died that morning. It sees, hears, smells, and processes EVERYTHING. It can't not. The autistic brain doesn't know HOW to seperate.

When you speak to someone with autism, they need a moment to seperate the words you just said to them (sometimes they need you to repeat, just so they can be sure they got it all), and then they need their brain to do something about what you just said, as in respond/react. Then it has to figure out that since it needs to react, what does that reaction need to be? You asked him to get you a glass of water. Were you angry? Were you sad? Were you simply stating a need? Is that need urgent? Oh no! Are you severely dehydrated?!? No.. you are simply thirsty, this is his home, and you would like some water. OK, so he gets you some water. Thank you!

Back to vaccines - the herd theory of having the majority immune: If I chose to not get vaccinated, would I not fall into the "unimmunized" group that would eventaully become immune due to this theory? What if I came into contact with small amount of this virus during my time at work perhaps, and it did make it into my system, and due to the small amount of virus (because of handwashing) my body could handle it, and therefore it would be the same effect as actually getting a vaccination??

I never used to have a good immune system. I would suffer horrendous chest colds for months on end (thanks Canadian winters and asthma and pulp mills), but I went to an acupuncturist who worked on my immune system (and thus treated many ailments, including chronic pain that I thought were totally unrelated). This treatment strengthened my ability to fight colds and flus, and therefore increased my "high and mighty" feelings that I didn't require a flu shot. I still don't feel I need one, and as long as my regular vaccinations are up to date, I am not required to get immunized for any type of seasonal 'flus. I absolutely believe in basic immunizations. They are a necessary evil in my mind, I just hope that when it comes to be my future children's turn, that I may have the option to spread them out, and not have so many needle sticks in one doctor's visit.

Our children today are fighting so many foreign substances. I believe we need to give their bodies a fighting chance to keep what they need and expel what they don't.

An example I like to think is interesting (and sort of gross) is people who sweat, and leave brown stains on their clothing and sheets. I know of 2 people who do this - my close friend, and my boyfriend. Fact of life is, I buy dark sheets, and he doesn't wear white shirts. He has got to be THE healthiest person I know. In the 6 years I have been with him, I believe I can recall 3 colds that knocked him on his butt for 2-4 days. But, no longer. Why on earth would his sweat stain things brown like that, without it having toxins in it? I don't know of him having any health concerns, while his family is riddled with this or that.

In the end, it really comes down to what individual bodies can handle. I chose not to get any flu vaccines, because I don't feel my body is strong enough to not get a little sick from the vaccine. I took my chances. Does this mean I would reccomend someone not get the vaccines? Not a chance. It is individual.
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