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Saltwater easier to keep than freshwater?!
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AndyM
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Joined: 18 Oct 2008

PostPosted: 2008.10.18(Sat)10:45    Post subject: Reply with quote

art_of_war wrote:
the freshwater hobbyist is LAZY.


I have been running 92G and 28G FW planted tanks for some time. Don't flatter yourself, you cannot be lazy and maintain a successful, quality planted tank. Continual observation, testing, fertilizing, pruning and plenty of time and $ are required. This is NOT a hobby for the lazy.

People jump into FW tanks, particuarly planted ones, with little knowledge or experience because too many SW folks like art_of_war in their arrogance tell them how much easier it is. These people meet with disasterous consequences sometimes because it is not that easy. A little knowledge can do a lot of damage. Water chemistry and maintenance is just as imprtant to a healthy, successful planted tank as any other. don't kid yourself, I have two beautiful tanks that are the result of diligent maintenance and a lot of research.

Sorry, the lazy comment got me going.
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FloridaBoy
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Joined: 04 Jul 2004

PostPosted: 2008.10.18(Sat)14:50    Post subject: Reply with quote

AndyM wrote:

I have been running 92G and 28G FW planted tanks for some time. Don't flatter yourself, you cannot be lazy and maintain a successful, quality planted tank. Continual observation, testing, fertilizing, pruning and plenty of time and $ are required. This is NOT a hobby for the lazy.


Good point! Laughing
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art_of_war
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Joined: 17 Nov 2006

PostPosted: 2008.10.22(Wed)11:24    Post subject: Reply with quote

AndyM wrote:
art_of_war wrote:
the freshwater hobbyist is LAZY.


I have been running 92G and 28G FW planted tanks for some time. Don't flatter yourself, you cannot be lazy and maintain a successful, quality planted tank. Continual observation, testing, fertilizing, pruning and plenty of time and $ are required. This is NOT a hobby for the lazy.

People jump into FW tanks, particuarly planted ones, with little knowledge or experience because too many SW folks like art_of_war in their arrogance tell them how much easier it is. These people meet with disasterous consequences sometimes because it is not that easy. A little knowledge can do a lot of damage. Water chemistry and maintenance is just as imprtant to a healthy, successful planted tank as any other. don't kid yourself, I have two beautiful tanks that are the result of diligent maintenance and a lot of research.

Sorry, the lazy comment got me going.


I will say this much, it's nice that you (the freshwater hobbyist) can use water straight from the tap since most cities have plenty of phosphates and nitrates already there. <--that's chemistry for you.

Florida,

You modified this one too? Are you offended by the comment of the Lazy hobbyist as well?


Last edited by art_of_war on 2008.10.24(Fri)10:36; edited 1 time in total
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AndyM
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PostPosted: 2008.10.24(Fri)8:08    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, my particular water has very little to none of either. Continual dosing (<- that's math) and testing (<- that's chemistry) are required to maintain qualtiy conditions. <- That's knowledge. With a degree in physics I have forgotten more than most know about both.
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art_of_war
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PostPosted: 2008.10.24(Fri)8:31    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow...I'm not impressed. Continual dosing <--that's meaningless plus excessive testing <--doesn't tell me anything equalling quality conditions <--matters little to me in freshwater.

florida,

*sigh* oh nevermind. What do I care.


Last edited by art_of_war on 2008.10.24(Fri)9:33; edited 1 time in total
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FloridaBoy
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PostPosted: 2008.10.24(Fri)9:15    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gents, I have cleaned up some of those comments...
I will be watching for any more personal attacks or cheap shots at other members on this thread, please abide by the forum agreement and respect one another... let's keep this a friendly place. Thanks for your understanding guys. Wink
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Dusko
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PostPosted: 2009.01.22(Thu)5:37    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read through this thread and can't see what this is all about Confused
Are Mars and Venus the same... which one is better...which one is easier...which one is more work...

What does this have to do with Marine or Fresh water ecosystems?

I work for the biggest Zoo Shop in south of Sweden and get such questions from the customers all the time. Everybody seem to be afraid of the amount of work involved in fish/inverts keeping.

None of the mentioned above is easier or heavier to maintain once you have figured out one big fact! ;

Adapt the tank (animals/corals/plants) to your personal life style and personal goals! This requires thorough research! That's all Smile

I have no time for often wc and for that reason I prefer Low-Tech planted aquariums.
Here is one good example;
This tank of mine is only 54 litres and is set-up as a High-light Low-tech tank. This tank was meant to be Hi-Tech but after the Green water issue several month ago caused by the CO2 malfunctioning I switched the CO2 off.
Such tanks are very unusual to see on the net. Why? It has Hi-lights and no CO2 Wink and it works like charm;



(I was lazy to remove all the unused CO2 equipment, drop checker, diffuser, extra pumps which I don't use, etc)

Most people online will advise against such method since it will MOST CERTAINLY cause algae issues Laughing ah... I do no water change for this set-up at all, only top-up what has evaporated.
But I do have soil under the gravel (to feed the plants) and I do have floating plants to help in reducing the lights a bit. Also, floating plants are excellent in keeping away all the NH4 which might have entered the water column.
Do you need CO2 to create a nice "Amanoish" scape? Not really Smile

Many on Marine forums will advice against stocking your tank after only 10 to 14 days. I started stocking the 2 of my personal salt water tanks after just 10 days the same I did with my shops show-off reef.
The thing is I used LR which was cured very long time + living sand from another tank. This is the secret to setting up in short time.
Of course one should never stock many fish at once. I wait approx one week to two weeks in between.
Also know you skimmer well. Is it effective in removing proteins fast?

The problem can arise (NO2) if we get uncured LR which will certainly introduce many death creatures within it which will rot away and cause organics (and NO2) to accumulate.
So ask your LFS "Is this LR cured and for how long", but also test for your self after approx 2 weeks (time when NO2 might show up).

Cured LR usually cost more than the uncured so it again comes to our life style. Am I a big spender or a cheap skate who has time to wait longer for NO2 to come down to 0ppm Wink

Most of my customers get cured LR and almost all of them start with fish stocking after 2 weeks (but first testing for NO2 of course). None had problems with death fish nor with NO2.

Is it possible to maintain a marine/reef aquarium without doing water changes?
Yes it is, but in this case often water testing is required. I know several blokes with stunning SPS, LPS corals and some with only Soft/Leather corals which perform wc only once a year Shocked Very Happy
In this case one has to test and dose a lot!!! Kalk reactor is a must when it comes to SPS/LPS but not that much in Softy reefs.
Active Carbon and Phos absorbers help a lot also most of them under-stock with fish (this is where most of the proteins come from).
These folk prefer over-sized skimmers (another big help in maintaining such system).

Then again I run one Softy reef Red Sea
Max at work without any Active Carbon nor do I use Phos absorbers. I do wc every ... when ever I get a chance (approx 2 month).
All the Leather sp, Moshroom sp, Briareum sp, grow like mad to the point where I have to replace them with smaller ones. This tank is approx year and a half old. Very important to mention, I have never dosed anything to it, no Iodine no traces, no Ca, Mg, KH-Booster... nothing, nada! And it still works well. The only thing I do often is feed the fish and top-up the evaporated water and clean the algae off of the glass (but no algae issues).

All methods are good just find the one which is right for you, the one which suits your life style and your goals.
I have seen very old (e.g. over 6 years old 10 galls) nano reefs with no skimmer but lots of fast growing soft corals (Anthelia, Xenia, Moshrooms, etc...) which house 2 A. Occelaris and 1 Six-line wrasse (apparently aggressive but not in this tank) without any issues. This nano-reefer performs weekly water change.
Is it possible? Of course it is. Is it responsible? That can be discussed!

When I started my new 180 litres softy reef I used cured LR, live sand and a good (but not perfect) skimmer.
I still can't test for any NO3 after almost 2 month. My corals like Xenia, Anthelia, Leathers showed signs of stress (curling up every day).
I dosed 5ml of the collected protein skim form the skimmer cup and dosed it back into the system (unusual) and corals opened up almost immediately (Xenia and Anthelia pumping like mad).
These days effective skimmers are used which can reduce organics very fast but also other traces which certain corals uptake.
My tank is freshly started so organics where missing (the small amount was skimmed out rather quickly).


Weekly wc do not suit my life style and for that reason I will dose traces weekly, test often, adjust the parameters when needed, and will change 20% of water every month. Only if I am happy this system is going to function properly enough. Going against your personal nature will lead to stress and fatal mistakes.

Research is the key! Compare and ask! There are no stupid questions. Only ignorance is stupid IMO Wink

Is the fresh water system easier than the marine or the other way around?
They aren't the same! They have different properties!
You have Hi-Tech and Low-Tech methods/approaches in both. Find the one that suits you Cool
Folk shouldn't be afraid of testing unusual methods (but also share them online and evaluate them). Only by doing this we are able to find good solutions (dosing Vodka comes to mind or using Zeolites in reef aquaria)
Thanks to people like Tom Barr we know that 4ppm of PO4 doesn't harm the fish and certainly doesn't cause algae issues in planted tanks.

As always kind regards, Dusko
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Last edited by Dusko on 2009.01.31(Sat)12:20; edited 1 time in total
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MarkLehr
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Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY

PostPosted: 2009.01.25(Sun)17:57    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great thread.

A common occurance in my home is for someone to look at my reef tank and ask me "Is it hard to take care of?"

I always answer "not for me."
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seds
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Joined: 23 Apr 2007
Location: northern Alberta

PostPosted: 2009.01.30(Fri)23:53    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that freshwater isn't so bad... It is easy as long as you stick with fish that stay small enough for your tank and don't overstock.
Saltwater can't be so difficult either, especially if you stick with hardy damselfish and keep stocking light, and avoid live reef. Having a reef tank is a lot like a planted tank. It probably is a bit easier to have reef than heavily planted with madagascar lace-leaf and stuff... But anyways...

In marine unfortunately we miss the open ocean fishes like mullet, sailfish, flying fish, sardine, tunnies, stuff like that... deep sea fishes, although they are impossible to keep, and trade... It seems to focus on a few groups and ignore others.. Probably for the better though, open ocean fishes grow large and swim at like 70 km/h One thing I dislike about the fishes on the market is there is no good schoolers, apart from fire goby and very specific types damsel. Freshwater has more variety as far as schooling goes... (in the hobby anyway) ANOTHER THING that bothers me to no end is people jumping up and down shouting "A NEMO A NEMO MOM LOOK OH MY GOSH A NEMO!" This isn't marine keeper's fault at all but still. Freshwater fish get mistaken for a nemo almost as often. Confused



In comparison, freshwater has it's behemoths, arampima, trout, sturgeon, arowana, snakehead, etc... There are many fish unsuitable for the average person in both waters... ALSO Not all freshwater fish are the same by any means! There is the deep bodied silver dollar, the transparent glass catfish, the wierd upside down catfish, scrawny dojo loach and fire eels... little trout shaped danio and weird spiny sculpins... There is the paddlefish, the elephant nose.. and of course cichlids... Want bold bands? Hornet tilapia/khuli loach/clown loach... Want blue? Try african cichlid X! Like shoals? There's tetra, danio... Freshwater has a little something for almost anyone.

My dad wanted to turn our new 72 gallon tank into marine way back when but the fact that I had old Iron the tinfoil barb for years (fish in my avatar) before that caused the final decision; tinfoils it was. Poor guy lived his first 5 years in 20 gallon tank so I felt he deserved the space. I didn't think about how big they got (and the LFS allowed me to buy them ALL) so I bought six babies. The poor suckers' population was cut to a manageable 4 barbs after an aeration disaster. Freshwater has it's issues: monster fish are everywhere and they are sold to unaware peoples all the time. It happened to me and it happens several times over even in a single day.
I have never owned marine but it can't be too hard... I have my plans for the future for both marine and fresh.

Mostly fresh though....

Mostly.


Darned tuna get too big.... I would try to get blackfin tuna if they were available. Little suckers stay less than 15 inches.
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Psyfalcon
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PostPosted: 2009.02.01(Sun)2:48    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think basic salt water tanks are hard. They are not all that different than a freshwater tank in general, as long as you have fish and water. I wouldn't rate the difference between keeping a Bolivian Ram, an Orange Chromide, or a Blue Damsel as very much, except how much salt you add to the water change water.

You can run deep sandbeds in a FW tank if you really wanted to. You could build a "complete" ecosystem with plants and shrimp and snails, and keep a single 2 inch fish in a 10-20 gallon tank. Then you'd do as few water changes as a saltwater tank.
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