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Black Moor Goldfish Help, Please
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MCHRKiller
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Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Location: USA

PostPosted: 2008.10.26(Sun)21:55    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very commendable for you taking such excellent care of that little fish. I would personally recommend a 29G tank...its not a far step from a 20G, uneducated people wouldnt know the diffrence and there is always the fib method until you move. "Guy at the store said it was 20G" which isnt a far fetch as with decor and all that it probably actually doesn't hold more than 23-24G of actual water. Laughing Now personally, I would keep your black moore and 1 other fancy goldfish of similar size. They tend to do well in pairs, and the general stocking of fancies is 15G per fish. Id just pick up a walmart tank kit, I bought a 29G kit recently for a friend and I believe it was 100bucks for the tank, filter, hood/light. Much cheapter than individual pieces. Id also use your current 5-15G filter in addition to the one that comes with the tank...that filtration should be adequate for some time anyway.

As for the dressers ability to hold the tank, I can't asnwer that. The 29G tank will weigh in the ballpark of 300lbs...most well made wooden dressers are just as sturdy as tank stands. I have my 100g tank sitting on my dresser re-inforced with only a piece of 1/2" plywood Smile
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Cliff Mayes
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Joined: 11 Mar 2007
Location: Western NY

PostPosted: 2008.10.27(Mon)9:18    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fish is probably not happy for a bunch of reasons. Your tank may not be fully up to snuff just yet and the H2OQ is not where it needs to be. The appropriate bacteria take as long as six weeks or more to fully develop. And too Goldfish , as with many fish, enjoy their own kind as company for breeding and other reasons that make sense to fish.

There are really no other species of fish that satisfy Goldfish requirements for company. Just because another fish is a cold water type does not make it a boon companion. Fish are almost as bad as humans when it comes to wanting to be with their own kind.

The fishes lethargy could be due to a lot of reasons, maybe boredom, but be careful of feeding things that increase the output of Ammonia, sometimes fish will do things that are harmful to themselves without understanding why. Getting excited about food while various chemicals are crashing in is normal. Do not mistake activity as a sign of health. Remember what I said earlier about the possible outcome.

As far as the dresser being able to hold the weight of a thirty...who knows? Water weighs about 8.3 pounds per gallon, metrics are easier. Tanks are not really cabable of holding the stated volumes of water but the weight of the tank, gravel etc makes up for the difference. The largest concern beyond weight is sideways movement. Racking is a real concern. Everyone plans on the tank being stable and no water ever splashing about but it happens. The rule is that if something bad can happen it will and at the worst possible time in the worst possible way. Count on it.

Tanks do not have to be filled all the way to the top but using a thirty to hold less water defeats the purpose of having the larger volume but it is lighter even though it does not give the fish as much room.

Be cautious about getting sucked into somthing you did not plan on. This is a great hobby and it is seductive but it is expensive and difficult. Even the ten holds a lot of water which if it gets loose can be a real problem.
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RedTiger
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Joined: 24 Aug 2008

PostPosted: 2008.10.27(Mon)17:38    Post subject: Reply with quote

MCHRKiller wrote:
Very commendable for you taking such excellent care of that little fish. I would personally recommend a 29G tank...its not a far step from a 20G, uneducated people wouldnt know the diffrence and there is always the fib method until you move. "Guy at the store said it was 20G" which isnt a far fetch as with decor and all that it probably actually doesn't hold more than 23-24G of actual water. Laughing Now personally, I would keep your black moore and 1 other fancy goldfish of similar size. They tend to do well in pairs, and the general stocking of fancies is 15G per fish. Id just pick up a walmart tank kit, I bought a 29G kit recently for a friend and I believe it was 100bucks for the tank, filter, hood/light. Much cheapter than individual pieces. Id also use your current 5-15G filter in addition to the one that comes with the tank...that filtration should be adequate for some time anyway.

As for the dressers ability to hold the tank, I can't asnwer that. The 29G tank will weigh in the ballpark of 300lbs...most well made wooden dressers are just as sturdy as tank stands. I have my 100g tank sitting on my dresser re-inforced with only a piece of 1/2" plywood Smile


thanks! I'm debating getting a used tank. I found some on craigslist. I thought about getting another black moor but then we won't be able to tell them apart. the filter that I have is a whisper internal 10-30gal. I don't really want to use it at its full capacity. there's this guy who closed his pet store and he says he's going to sell all his stuff near cost. his tanks are all painted, though. won't be getting that from him!

there's another guy who has used his for 2 yrs but says he does not have time to keep up with 13 tanks so he's selling some of them. not sure if he's got a stand with it but I can get the tank for $15. he does have the glass cover, I don't know how much he wants.

someone else is selling her whole 30-gal kit for $25. the dresser is pretty sturdy. I went to the store today and saw that the 20-gal and 30-gal are the same length, the 30-gal is just taller. Smile
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RedTiger
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PostPosted: 2008.10.27(Mon)17:42    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cliff Mayes wrote:
The fish is probably not happy for a bunch of reasons. Your tank may not be fully up to snuff just yet and the H2OQ is not where it needs to be. The appropriate bacteria take as long as six weeks or more to fully develop. And too Goldfish , as with many fish, enjoy their own kind as company for breeding and other reasons that make sense to fish.

There are really no other species of fish that satisfy Goldfish requirements for company. Just because another fish is a cold water type does not make it a boon companion. Fish are almost as bad as humans when it comes to wanting to be with their own kind.

The fishes lethargy could be due to a lot of reasons, maybe boredom, but be careful of feeding things that increase the output of Ammonia, sometimes fish will do things that are harmful to themselves without understanding why. Getting excited about food while various chemicals are crashing in is normal. Do not mistake activity as a sign of health. Remember what I said earlier about the possible outcome.

As far as the dresser being able to hold the weight of a thirty...who knows? Water weighs about 8.3 pounds per gallon, metrics are easier. Tanks are not really cabable of holding the stated volumes of water but the weight of the tank, gravel etc makes up for the difference. The largest concern beyond weight is sideways movement. Racking is a real concern. Everyone plans on the tank being stable and no water ever splashing about but it happens. The rule is that if something bad can happen it will and at the worst possible time in the worst possible way. Count on it.

Tanks do not have to be filled all the way to the top but using a thirty to hold less water defeats the purpose of having the larger volume but it is lighter even though it does not give the fish as much room.

Be cautious about getting sucked into somthing you did not plan on. This is a great hobby and it is seductive but it is expensive and difficult. Even the ten holds a lot of water which if it gets loose can be a real problem.


hi!! Smile

the water readings all check out good. but maybe there's not enough good bacteria yet. (no way to check that!) maybe he's bored.

I do hope that a used tank won't burst. that would really stink!!!

I'm not going to get suckered in Wink. I know its a hobby to most but we're looking at swimmey as a pet. Smile once he brought home the surprise pet, I thought we'd get a 2nd one, just a matter of "when".

if swimmey is unhealthy/sick from lethargy, do you have any recommendations one what can make him healthy? he doesn't have any spots on him. he goes back and forth between just floating and then digging. I'd say its about 50/50.
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Cliff Mayes
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Joined: 11 Mar 2007
Location: Western NY

PostPosted: 2008.10.27(Mon)20:29    Post subject: Reply with quote

All of the various varieties of Goldfish are the same species and are capable of interbreeding and getting along or not. All Moors do not look alike to anyone familiar with them.

A lot of fish become family members rather than just pets. Names and personalities are normal.

If the Moor you have was injured by the chemicals in the tank there is not much you can do to fix it. This is why the normal advice tries to avoid problems rather than fixing them. All fish problems are not visible. Behavior is another way to judge fish health. Being familiar with a fish or species is helpful.

I try not to keep tanks for more than 10 years because they do get weaker but there is no telling when a tank may burst even new ones can go. Anything falling against a tank can break it and this sometimes happens. I have not seen it but I have heard of it,

The footprint or tank dimensions may be the same on the bottom but the overall wieght is still important. And too keep in mind what I said about sideways movement than can rack a dresser or stand and end up dumping a tank on the floor.
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MCHRKiller
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Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Location: USA

PostPosted: 2008.10.27(Mon)20:48    Post subject: Reply with quote

If your dresser is made from wood, and not particle board and is atleast 18" wide the risk of it collapsing or tipping over is unlikely. As said I have a standard wood dresser, its some random hardwood...and is 22" wide and holding up a 100G aquarium. It would be a good idea to get a sheet of plywood cut to put on top of the dresser...you can stain it/paint it to match the dresser to add some re-inforcement. For a 30ish gallon a 1/4"piece would do just fine. It will also protect your dresser from water damage which could arise from the tank...thus also helping keep it stable. If you can get a relatively new, used tank by all means. Selling your 10G setup could also get you a few bucks. Besides my 150 and 100G...all my tanks were purchased second hand...know the brand of your tank, some tanks are guaranteed to last longer than others. Most of my tanks are either made by All-Glass or Oceanic which are typically guaranteed to last 20years, other brands last either 10, or 15 years depending on who made it and what. I did have a 35G tank that was over 25years old and going strong, I have since given it to my GF as she was in need of a tank around that size.

If you can afford it a canister filter would do you best expecially with messy fish like Golds. They are essentially a bucket of filter material with a motor sitting on top of it, the media capacity compared to a standard internal or hang on filter is amazing.
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RedTiger
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Joined: 24 Aug 2008

PostPosted: 2008.10.28(Tue)18:03    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a sturdy dresser made out of wood (I think... I'll double check). Cliff has a pretty good idea about not filling it until we move and I can get a stand. As long as the fishies are small, that should be okay and if they grow fast, I'll fill it up more! That will save me from buying another upgrade. Smile

I'm going to keep all the stuff that I have for the 30-gallon. I went and looked at the first tank today, piece of junk so I didn't buy it. its over 10 yrs old and the stand was rusted. I'm guessing it wasnt made with the better silicone, too.

I'll look at the other two this weekend. Hopefully, one of them will work. If not, I'll keep hunting or have to buy the tank new. Sad The one from the pet store guy (closed his shops) is only 4 months old and made by "All-Glass" so I'd be happy to get that, except he said he painted it on 3 sides. he *says* that I can easily remove it but I'm not so sure. I'll see if he is right. I don't really want to scratch the glass, either. he's got lots of NEW stuff that he's trying to dump so I may even pick up an extra filter. he doesn't have the glass top, though. Sad the other one for sale is from a guy who had 13 tanks and wants to downsize. he's had it a few years and its currently being used. thats kinda nice because I can make sure it doesn't leak! if its only a few years old, it should be made from silicone, right? Smile

swimmey's heater is great. it's pretty sensitive. tmrw its supposed to be cold so I tested it. his tank is at 72-F right now so I turned it up to 74-F see if it would shut off and it did! (unlike the top fin one that brought the tank up 10-F to 78-F when it was set at 68-F.)

he's been a lot more active the last couple of days. maybe he just wasn't feeling well. he still hates the really bright light. as soon as I turn it off, he's more active. maybe it hurts his eyes.

thanks again!! Smile
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Cliff Mayes
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Joined: 11 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: 2008.10.28(Tue)20:40    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanks do not leak after ten years, some last a long time. Ten years is just my idea so take it with a grain of salt, if you will excuse the expression.

All modern tanks are made of all glass with Silicon Goo in the corner holding it together. Most tanks have plastic tops and bottoms and sometimes center braces to help with bowing. If you put a Straight Edge on almost any full tank it bows from the weight and pressure of the water. This is quite normal. Glass is extremely strong. It just doesn't enjoy sudden stresses, so no rapping , tapping or othewise hitting the tank suddenly. The fish do not like it and the tank may fail and believe me even ten gallons of water is a lot to let loose. The Europeans used to make large tanks with just the butt edges glued together and it worked. Once in a while Algae or various Stains will discolor the Silicon and irritate observers.

Rusty old metal stands (which are very good) can be bargains. No one plans on spilling water but it happens. A cheap can of spray paint from Wal*Mart and the stand is good to go. I usually paint new tanks on the back the same way (a can of paint works too) and the paint peels off with a razor blade nice and easy with no scratches. Acrylic is a problem and I also do not know what the shop owner painted his tanks with. Taking the paint off is messy but quick.

Do not buy anything you do not need. All of us have boxes of stuff we have accumulated over the years. One of the "advantages" to buyng used stuff is that all of the extras came with the tank and stand. This can be good and bad. Any old food or unusable stuff..throw it away. After people know you have a tank free stuff comes your way (sometimes left on your doorstep) because even though it is a huge Hobby many folks get out of it and a lot of expensive equipment sits and gathers dust until it is thrown out, given away or sold. Do not be afraid of scrounging from a Dumpster or curbside pile of Garbage, sometimes even nice tanks are just tossed.

Good equipment, especially Heaters are cheaper in the long run, but as I said you probably do not need it. If it is good enough for people it is probably good enough for the Goldfish.

I cannot imagine why the light bothers the fish but such is life.
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RedTiger
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Joined: 24 Aug 2008

PostPosted: 2008.10.29(Wed)19:43    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cliff Mayes wrote:
Tanks do not leak after ten years, some last a long time. Ten years is just my idea so take it with a grain of salt, if you will excuse the expression.

All modern tanks are made of all glass with Silicon Goo in the corner holding it together. Most tanks have plastic tops and bottoms and sometimes center braces to help with bowing. If you put a Straight Edge on almost any full tank it bows from the weight and pressure of the water. This is quite normal. Glass is extremely strong. It just doesn't enjoy sudden stresses, so no rapping , tapping or othewise hitting the tank suddenly. The fish do not like it and the tank may fail and believe me even ten gallons of water is a lot to let loose. The Europeans used to make large tanks with just the butt edges glued together and it worked. Once in a while Algae or various Stains will discolor the Silicon and irritate observers.

Rusty old metal stands (which are very good) can be bargains. No one plans on spilling water but it happens. A cheap can of spray paint from Wal*Mart and the stand is good to go. I usually paint new tanks on the back the same way (a can of paint works too) and the paint peels off with a razor blade nice and easy with no scratches. Acrylic is a problem and I also do not know what the shop owner painted his tanks with. Taking the paint off is messy but quick.

Do not buy anything you do not need. All of us have boxes of stuff we have accumulated over the years. One of the "advantages" to buyng used stuff is that all of the extras came with the tank and stand. This can be good and bad. Any old food or unusable stuff..throw it away. After people know you have a tank free stuff comes your way (sometimes left on your doorstep) because even though it is a huge Hobby many folks get out of it and a lot of expensive equipment sits and gathers dust until it is thrown out, given away or sold. Do not be afraid of scrounging from a Dumpster or curbside pile of Garbage, sometimes even nice tanks are just tossed.

Good equipment, especially Heaters are cheaper in the long run, but as I said you probably do not need it. If it is good enough for people it is probably good enough for the Goldfish.

I cannot imagine why the light bothers the fish but such is life.


awesome! thanks! I'm looking forward to the shop owner's tanks, then. Smile

gave swimmey two small peas tonight. they were frozen so I stuck them in microwave for 45-sec. he didn't eat them at first, maybe he didn't realize it was food! I added a couple of flakes so he would start digging for food. that did the trick. Smile

he does seem to be gulping a lot (he's under water when he does it, so I guess thats okay. I just don't remember him doing that all the time before.) I didn't have time to use the kit to test the water so I used the dipstick as a guide and everything checked out okay. nitrate 20-30, nitrite 0.75, hardness 100, chlorine 0, alkaliniyt 60, 6.4 pH acidic. ammonia reads at 0. I guess its not great but its not bad. probably still cycling, right? maybe I should get a small piece of coral to keep the pH up. I understand that the fishy poop continually lowers the pH.

I really appreciate your responses here. I'd be lost without your help! Smile
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Cliff Mayes
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PostPosted: 2008.10.29(Wed)20:02    Post subject: Reply with quote

The normal trend in tanks is for the pH to get acidic which is good considering that the tank is probably not cycled yet. The nitrite reading, if it is accurate, is not good. Keep up the WCs they may save the fishes life. Do not be too generous with the food, it will add to the bad stuff in the water, both from the fish as waste and as the residue of uneaten food.
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