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Black Moor Goldfish Help, Please
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RedTiger
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Joined: 24 Aug 2008

PostPosted: 2008.08.27(Wed)20:52    Post subject: Please!! NEW HELP needed: NITRITE problem Reply with quote

hi! Swimmey is in the tiny hex aquatank but I was considering doing a complete water change and wondered if that was a good idea. (that's why I asked abt moving him to the goldfish bowl.) I have since changed my mind because he is not going to the top gulping.

I got the 10-gal glass rectangular tank, with a glass lid today. (no light.) I didn't want to spend too much money because, if this works out, when we move we'll get a much bigger tank and add fishies. the tank was only $9 and the the lid was $12. how odd that the lid costs more....

I got him some floating pellet goldfish food so now I can alternate that and the flakes. (along with veggies soon.) though, it took him forever to go eat it (I don't think he knew what it was).

you have touched my next topic of problems! Laughing FILTRATION!!!!!!!!!!! I'm really really really confused and don't know what to get.

I picked up the Aqua-Tech 5-15 Power Filter external filter. (it's from walmart so if I don't want it, I can easily return it.) then I read about suction and pulling water out of tank. well that concerns me. what if it fails and then Swimmey has no water? I also looked at a tetra whisper 10-20gal filter. it was to rest inside the tank. I opted not to get it so it wouldn't take tank space but now I'm thinking that would have been better. I'd like to get the correct filtration system tmrw so I can get the tank ready for his big move on sunday. (one day after meds end.)

when he has a filter, does he also need airstones and air pumps? or is it optional? and if it's optional, is it really better for him to have it?

the lady at the pet store told me to get coral gravel. I read that coral gravel & sand was bad because it can raise the pH. (she also said that I could put a piece of coral in the tank to bring it to the right pH level. I guess she had to raise the pH level of her tank once. when she said that, I dismissed what she was saying because coral is rough and Swimmey has bad eyes, she didn't seem to understand that goldfish and sharp objects=bad.) so what kind of gravel is best? AND how much gravel should cover the bottom?

now that I have the tank, is the following all that I need to get started and be successful: air pump, filter and gravel suction thingy (what is that?)?

finally (for this post anyway Wink), location. moving around the little 2gal-ish tank was no big deal. moving around a 10-gal tank, not gonna happen! we have a small apt so there is not much room. I did read that drafts are bad and so is heavy traffic area. the apt is so small, any place that is not by a window is in the walk/traffic area. the windows are fairly new so while there is some draft, its minimal. (except if I have a window open during the fall or spring, then it might be more but I suppose I could always not do that.) which is better? minimal draft or walk area?

I'm tempted to put the tank on the floor next to my dresser but think it might become a literal pain in the back to change the water. since it's 10-gal, it should be fine on my dresser, right? (that does mean he'll be blocking part of my mirror, which stinks for me but maybe good for him.) what are your thoughts?

SORRY for all the questions but since we've got the pet, I might as well do it right!

oh I keep getting error messages of the board being busy when I come here so that's what took me so long. I do appreciate all of your help!! Smile
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Last edited by RedTiger on 2008.10.04(Sat)20:15; edited 1 time in total
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Quitty_Quat
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Joined: 24 Aug 2008
Location: Ohio

PostPosted: 2008.08.27(Wed)21:36    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cliff Mayes wrote:
Quitty_Quat;
What is a hawkeye hex? I am not familiar with that term.

It's the type of tank/filter combo that redtiger has at the mo, check back to her post for the link.

The filter you got should be fine, I've seen friends with similar ones, they seemed pretty OK. As for power outages, the filter will stop pulling water up, so water won't just run out of the tank. the problem with a power outage, is without circulating water, the bio bugs that are in the filter (after cycling) will die after a couple hours, and you'll have to start your cycle from scratch, and if you're away while the power's out, ammonia can spike, and you'll come home to dead fishie. That was a big concern for me 2 years ago, cause we had frequent outages, luckily they didn't last long. Another concern would be, even if the power came back on quickly, the filter might not be able to start pulling water up again on its own, you have to be quick to poor water into the filter or the impellor could damage itself, running dry. When you first start the filter, watch and see if it can start pulling the water up on its own, otherwise you'll have to 'prime' it by hand, it's something to be aware of about your filter.
About the pellet food, it's a good idea to soak it a minute or two before feeding it, they expand and could cause internal damage if fed dry.
Placementplacementplacement...
If the tank's in front of a window, you can quickly find yourself facing a ton of algae, and with such a small tank, you can't really add a snail or algae eating fish. Sudden temperature changes should be avoided, though how strong a draft can you really have?
I don't think there's any problem putting the tank in a 'high traffic' area. Maybe not at the front door, but if there's a nice ledge or table or whatever in the kitchen/dining room/living room, that'd be fine. Goldfish generally see someone come near the tank and start doing the "FOOD?!" dance. Besides, the tank is supposed to be ENJOYED by people!

An air stone and pump pretty much go hand in hand, the stone being interchangeable with a bubble wand. Stones and wands just disperse the air from the pump to increase distribution of the air. You can have enough oxygen exchange going on if you keep the water level just low enough so that the water coming out of the filter stirs up the surface. But if you do see Swimmey gulping, or prefer to keep a higher water level (to increase the amount of water, and have a less splashy sounding tank), a pump might be needed.

As for the gravel, I personally keep a nylon sock with crushed coral to keep my pH constant. It's not really necessary, but with the amount of money I
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RedTiger
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PostPosted: 2008.08.30(Sat)18:21    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swimmey's fungus is all gone!! His tank is all set up!

It contains:
10-gal rectangular all glass tank with glass cover.
15-watt light (from the AquaTank, saved some money since it just rests on the glass)
Tetra Internal Whisper filter for 10-30gal,
Tetra 10 Air pump attached to 6" airstone
External temperature monitor
1 plant
1 Alligator starting to eat a fish with a sign that says, "NO EATING"
1 Big oriental looking vase with 4 openings so he can hide
20-lbs of bright green gravel. (I was going to do 15-lbs but my son wanted more.... If it was level it would be roughly 2". It's not level because I thought it added to the decor.)

I added to the water:
Tetra AquaSafe with BioExtract weater conditioner

Jungle Aquarium Start-Up Kit (contains Water Safe Plus and Ammonia Clear). Ther'es also Correct pH and if the pH is correct, I'll add that before I add Swimmey because it stabailzes the pH. If not, I guess I'll have to go buy the stuff to make it the right pH.

--------------------------------------------------------
I got a really cheap Lee's GravelVac.

Before moving Swimmey over, I'll test the water and add some salt so he is less stressed. Then, I just need to move him and his plant from the AquaTank.

Did I forget anything? Smile
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Cliff Mayes
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Joined: 11 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: 2008.08.30(Sat)19:15    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a lot better than what it had!

I wouldn't bother with the pH adjust but everything else sounds OK. The salt probably was good thing but try not to make a habit of it. The Goldfish will probably eat the plant. I have always enjoyed plants and Goldfish, which has been a real problem over the years but I keep trying. Java Fern, Java Moss and Duckeed all seem to have some benefit, although a Pond and multiple tanks help.

The Gravel Vac is probably a good one. I personally like the yellow ones that can be gotten at Wal*Mart but any less expensive one is probably better than the powered ones and other "sophisticated" types. If you ever get a lot of tanks or larger ones a Python is a really neat tool.

A lot of the packages get you started and then you replace most of the stuff with ala carte items later.

Your Moor will think its in Pig Heaven for awhile, later, another Goldfish for company and a bigger tank will be cool. You are off to a flying start, just do not forget the WC's they are the key.
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RedTiger
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PostPosted: 2008.08.30(Sat)21:23    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks!! Smile

I won't add any more salt, unless he is stressed. he's eating shrimp right now. I bought everything a la carte from the get-go. I didn't like anything that they had in the kits. the filters seemed too weak and I didn't like the hoods because they all had tiny 4" openings. I thought it would be too hard to change the water. I'd like to move Swimmey over tonight but I guess that I should wait until tmrw morning. the water temp is higher than goldfish prefer (78-F) but there's not much I can do abt it because of the external weather.

the gravel-vac that I got is made by Lee's and it doesn't have a wide opening so I might not like it too much. I liked that it had an extender so I wouldn't have to stick my arm in the water. I picked it up at Petco. oh, I did get a check-valve for the air pump. I'm confused how it would siphon water out if it loses power but thats what they said to get for it.

I did notice Swimmey eating some of his plant earlier today. maybe I should do one last water change in his tiny aquatank.

how often will I need to do water changes in the 10-gal?
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Cliff Mayes
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PostPosted: 2008.08.30(Sat)22:27    Post subject: Reply with quote

WC's are a judgment call. Sometimes 20% a week is OK but more and more frequently is sometimes required and good for the fish. No definite answers here, unfortunately, but I have no qualms about your ability to recognize what will be right.

Putting your body into the tank is not a good idea so using a long enough siphon is a good thing. Watch out for stray electricity. Stray electricity is an ever present danger. Always turn off lights, heaters, pumps or any electrical device before touching the water. If your fish starts to act jumpy, sometimes, it is a sign that there is stray juice in the tank. Fix the problem, pronto. It is a good idea to clean and rinse hands before working on tanks. Adding creams, deodorants, cosmetics etc. to the water can be fatal for the inhabitants

Having said to keep your body out of the tank, at least once a day hand test the water to make sure the temp is not getting too extreme. Goldfish being cold water fish seem to be most comfortable around 65 degrees f but they seem to deal with much higher temps, at least for several days. I have raised Goldfish tank temps up to the low 90's to get rid is Ich without any ill effects. Usually a heater is not needed but occasionally high summer temps can get way too high. Keeping the lights off and hanging wet towels on the sides of the tank helps. I have known folk to use fans, bags of ice in the tank and simply leaving covers off to keep temps down. There are coolers available but they cost an arm and a leg but some folk have done DIY's.

Make sure that you have done whatever is required to prevent a backflow siphon from occurring. You do not need ten gallons of water loose and a dead fish. The check valve should work nicely.

Avoid the temptation to get other fish to keep the Goldfish company. Goldfish do not do well with other types of tank mates. You do not even have enough room for the one you have, and I have done it, so avoid doing this. Goldfish are gregarious creatures but other species are not the answer.
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RedTiger
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PostPosted: 2008.08.31(Sun)15:31    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks. I will watch the water and check it with the sticks until I get the hang of it. Smile

I had not thought to watch out for stray electricity. I will shut everything off before I do anything. thank you!!

even though I have on the a/c the water temp is around 80. I thought about putting ice in but then I'd have to worry about the chlorine and I was worried it would shock him. I can open the cover when I'm here and then also the wet towels sounds like a great idea.

nice to know that another gold fish is really the only acceptable fish. kinda a bummer but they do have other types of goldfish. we saw a pretty one that was gold with black on its fins. even with a more powerful filter and additional water changes, another goldfish wouldn't work?
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Cliff Mayes
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PostPosted: 2008.08.31(Sun)21:53    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of the really bad things, for fish, in water are not visible. Do not rely on visual clues only. Doing the ritual 20% per week is a good start but you will very quickly develop a "feel" for water quality (H2OQ.) If things do not seem right do an extra water change...it is that simple and solves most problems. All of the fish that I have known cannot talk but they can communicate, especially if conditions get intolerable.

Being in the way of electricity when it wants to go somewhere is uncomfortable at best and fatal at worst. I, like most hobbyists, just freely put my hands in the tank but this is very wrong. Any small cut becomes noticeable with a mild short in the water but if it hits the right (wrong?) way a very tiny amount of juice can kill you.

Ice to cool tanks is usually put in a bag so H2OQ is not affected.

Most of us have tried various other species in with Goldfish but it usually does not work out. Cories, Weather Loaches, you name it I have tried it. Dumb? Yeah but now I am sadder and wiser (somewhat) and I do not even try to mix them although friends of mine have had success mixing Goldfish, Koi and various Tropicals (livebearers etc.) in large ponds.

Goldfish are very "plastic" genetically which means we can and somebody somewhere has developed a lot of new strains with weird colors and bizarre body shapes and different finnage. There are even rumors of family heirloom fish that are not made public that are very interesting to fanciers. All Goldfish start out green and turn colors as they age. Fry can sometimes color up in weeks, other varieties and individuals can take up to a year and a half to end up whatever. All Moors are black telescopes all other black fish are usually going through a change that can take years. White fish are not usually highly prized by the originators the exception being the Red Caps, but finding a really good Red Cap is rare. In fact to find one or a few good fish out of a spawn of thousands is rare.
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RedTiger
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PostPosted: 2008.08.31(Sun)22:17    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi! Swimmey's tank is is still hot (80-F). wish they had coolers for the tanks, like they have heaters. I put an ice pack on the back of the tank (outside), hoping it will help. I'm freezing more ice packs now. could I put them inside the tank, if sealed in plastic or is it better to just keep them on the outside? Smile I don't have much ice but what I do have, I put in a ziploc and added it. (while I do know the recipe for ice, it seems that my brain thinks its a hard one to make Wink.)

his water is also a bit cloudy. I guess that could be from the aquarium salt that I put in.

it would proably be easier to shut things off in the aquarums if they had "on/off" buttons. I can see how unplugging will become tiresome. mine's plugged into a surge protector unit so I'll just flip the switch. that does mean that I need to move my clock radio off there.

why do you think that he spends most of his time in the corner? his room has increased by 5x, yet he hardly explores the whole tank. he is swimming kinda fast but he did that the last time we moved him. I don't think he likes moving and invasions much, plus I just stuck in a bag of ice.

I found your fish trivia interesting. thanks for sharing it!


I wonder how big he is going to get. so, even with a super duper powerful filter, you don't think two goldfish would work in the tank? they are small fish but "poop" a lot. if I can keep the tank clean, will it still work? Smile


Cliff Mayes wrote:
Most of the really bad things, for fish, in water are not visible. Do not rely on visual clues only. Doing the ritual 20% per week is a good start but you will very quickly develop a "feel" for water quality (H2OQ.) If things do not seem right do an extra water change...it is that simple and solves most problems. All of the fish that I have known cannot talk but they can communicate, especially if conditions get intolerable.

Being in the way of electricity when it wants to go somewhere is uncomfortable at best and fatal at worst. I, like most hobbyists, just freely put my hands in the tank but this is very wrong. Any small cut becomes noticeable with a mild short in the water but if it hits the right (wrong?) way a very tiny amount of juice can kill you.

Ice to cool tanks is usually put in a bag so H2OQ is not affected.

Most of us have tried various other species in with Goldfish but it usually does not work out. Cories, Weather Loaches, you name it I have tried it. Dumb? Yeah but now I am sadder and wiser (somewhat) and I do not even try to mix them although friends of mine have had success mixing Goldfish, Koi and various Tropicals (livebearers etc.) in large ponds.

Goldfish are very "plastic" genetically which means we can and somebody somewhere has developed a lot of new strains with weird colors and bizarre body shapes and different finnage. There are even rumors of family heirloom fish that are not made public that are very interesting to fanciers. All Goldfish start out green and turn colors as they age. Fry can sometimes color up in weeks, other varieties and individuals can take up to a year and a half to end up whatever. All Moors are black telescopes all other black fish are usually going through a change that can take years. White fish are not usually highly prized by the originators the exception being the Red Caps, but finding a really good Red Cap is rare. In fact to find one or a few good fish out of a spawn of thousands is rare.

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Cliff Mayes
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PostPosted: 2008.09.01(Mon)6:41    Post subject: Reply with quote

The bag of ice can go right in the tank.

He is lethargic for some reason. Maybe the temp or the H2OQ is bad from the aquarium just being set up. Possibly a lot of WC's may help or it may be too late.

One Goldfish at full size is probably too much for the ten. New tank syndrome (before the de-nitrifying bacteria can establish themselves) aside, the waste production from the fish (Gills and Anal orfice) is truly significant and constant. The very small body of water in a ten is much too tiny to cope with the output.

Cloudy water is probably from bacteria blooms in the new water. Chlorine is not stable in water (it does not want to stay there) and does not truly kill everything. As soon as the Chlorine is neutralized or disappated the bugs flourish and are one of the reasons for cloudy water. As soon as the colony of bugs runs out of food they die off and the water becomes clearer but the decaying carcasses of the bugs add to the H2OQ problems just as excess food and wastes from the fish do. This is a problem that the only answer to is WC's. The conflict is that adding new water introduces a new batch of bugs and the cycle repeats ad nauseum. This is not easy to understand and takes time that is better dealt with without the presense of fish. You do not have this luxury but WC's are a temporary fix for now.

You Moor has the potential of getting about 8 inhes long but very fat so that is why a Goldfish can not fit in a ten. The old saw about things getting no larger than the container they are in is nonsense. Moors usually live about 5 yars but can and do live a lot longer. Most fish are killed by Hobbyists (it is what keeps the LFS in business although they will hotly deny this) through; neglect, ignorance and equipment failures. Commons or Feeders that are usually sold to Folk with larger creatures that have a need to eat other live food are a singletailed variety (breed) that can easily get to 20 inches and weigh a lot such that they do not even look like the same fish.
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