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Water circulation
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Psyfalcon
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Joined: 14 Feb 2003
Location: Oregon

PostPosted: 2008.03.14(Fri)3:36    Post subject: Water circulation Reply with quote

Theresa1 wrote:
.
-) Filtration: once or twice the whole tank volume in an hour. Has always worked quite good like this. Here I keep reading about 10 times (!) the tank volume in an hour and I keep wondering how this much filtration should ever work. I once read the slower the water is going over the filter substrate, the better bacteria can use the water. If you send the water through at a high speed.... do you still have any biological filtration left?


EDIT Smile

If you get a good book on wastewater treatment, it will tell you exactly how long the contact time between the water and the bacteria needs to be for the best efficiency. Its pretty slow, as you have heard. I think it is on the order of several hours, but I can not find a citation right now.

Unfortunately, you don't have it quite right. Turnover does not have much to do with it. It has to do with pump size. In almost any filter I've seen, the water passes through the filter long before the contact time is complete. If you used a bit of food dye, you would see that the same 100 g(or liter)pH filter would have the same water velocity through it. On the "overfiltered" tanks, the various particles are cycled through more often, and although they don't spend any more time in the filter per pass the repetitive passes do add up to more contact time in any given hour.

I really feel that most fish are capable of handling much more turnover than we think. We (humans) like to think of fish bearing water as calm and peaceful, and try to replicate that, while we think that rapids must be devoid of life. Some remarkably normal fish inhabit quickly moving water, and there are always the specialized fish too. I've found that I blow all my plants around before a fish takes issue with the current.

This includes distinctly swamp type fish, including Striped Raphaels which had a habit of swimming into the current, and then surfing downstream while searching for food (when they wanted peace, they found some plants to hide behind, or rocks to sleep in. My cories too completely ignored 20x turnover in that tank, while my Betta was relatively content in 10x per hour turnover. The Betta did avoid the immediate intake and outflow area, but he still had 90% of the tank to travel freely.

It does not mean that you have to have a ton of filtration of course, my current "fast water" tank has embarrassingly low turnover (5gph) and the fish completely ignored a power outage that resulted in 24 hours of stagnant but cool water. It still doesn't mean that 20x turnover would hurt anything either.
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nikelodeon79
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Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Location: Wisconsin, U.S.A.

PostPosted: 2008.03.14(Fri)7:57    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I really feel that most fish are capable of handling much more turnover than we think. We (humans) like to think of fish bearing water as calm and peaceful, and try to replicate that, while we think that rapids must be devoid of life. Some remarkably normal fish inhabit quickly moving water, and there are always the specialized fish too. I've found that I blow all my plants around before a fish takes issue with the current.

I realize that you did say "most fish" but I just wanted to give an example of fish that did take issue with a current that wasn't (in my opinion) all that strong.

I run a Whisper 60 and a Whisper 40 on my 55g community tank. I used to have a 12" long bubble curtain (very fine bubbles). For a couple of months, I was completely baffled by the fact that my three gold gouramis hid 99% of the time. They spent their time huddled in a corner of the tank underneath some plants. After I turned off the bubble curtain, they started exploring the tank more and now can be found out and about quite often. I could only deduce that their hiding behavior had to do with the extra current created by the bubble curtain.

I also have a betta that throws a fit when the current in his tank is too strong.
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Psyfalcon
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Joined: 14 Feb 2003
Location: Oregon

PostPosted: 2008.03.14(Fri)11:25    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, its true, the Gourami, and Bettas fall into the "Other" fish category here. While not from elephant footprints like some people report, they do come from largely still swampy areas. If you do go to youtube and watch the videos of the natural habitats, even the still waters do move quite a bit, at least at certain times of the year.

I did have have one that did not mind a bubble want though, so its probably a number of factors Its also amazing how much current those bubble wands can create, without filtering anything.
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nikelodeon79
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PostPosted: 2008.03.14(Fri)12:32    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I did have have one that did not mind a bubble want though, so its probably a number of factors Its also amazing how much current those bubble wands can create, without filtering anything.

Yes, I also had a betta who actually liked current, so I guess it does depend on the individual fish! Wink
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Heather2128
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Joined: 13 Mar 2007
Location: Alabama, USA

PostPosted: 2008.03.14(Fri)13:01    Post subject: Reply with quote

My gold gourami likes to hang out directly underneath the HOB filter, right where the turbulence is the worst. I always thought it was really strange, since I assumed that gouramis would not like current, but he obviously does. Silly boy! Smile
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Dusko
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Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Location: Denmark

PostPosted: 2008.03.14(Fri)13:38    Post subject: Reply with quote

Psyfalcon, you started a good topic, and IMO doesn't belong in this thread?
Do you want me to split it to another forum?
Just a thought Smile

Kind regards, Dusko
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MCHRKiller
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Joined: 23 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: 2008.03.14(Fri)14:39    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Psyfalcon. I've always contributed my filtering methods to the fact that I primarily keep large messy fish, thus I wouldnt dream of anything less than 10X delivered by high efficientcy canisters. Now I have recently gotten back into keeping some smaller fish, and developed a planted tank. The tank has almost a complete groundcover of java moss at about 1.5" thick so there is a lot of plant life there, but my turnover is still at 13X and it contains female bettas, khuli loaches, and tiger barbs..none of which are of any substantial size. The fish are by no means bothered by te turnover...and I believe I could infact add another filter of about 150gph and have fine results.

It really is IMO how your filters are placed in the tank which determine how much filtration turnover you can have. The HOB filters we commonly use...lets face it are pitiful when it comes to the volume of media. Most of them are limited to a cheap poly pad with some carbon. If we only turned our tank volume over 1-2X per hour with one of those our tanks would surely fail with a normal stock load and absence of plant life, which most people have. Where a tank of the same setup with cannister filtration with a 1-2X per hour turnover would yeild better results, but still for the average hobbyist not good enough for a highly successful tank.
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cheese-737
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Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Location: Michigan

PostPosted: 2008.03.21(Fri)23:19    Post subject: Reply with quote

I plan on using a three hundred gallon per hour filter on a twenty gallon tank with tetras. HOWEVER, that filter also uses four filter pads rather than one. still, I agree with the fact that its alittle fast for the bacteria, but the selling point on this for me is the fact that it has four pads, built in heating that eliminates having a heater in the tank stuck to the wall, and UV clairification, to help combat the cyanobacteria issue going on right now. If it seems to filtered, I will get out the old reliable simple HOB. Simple.
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