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Behind the Curtains of Responsible Fish-Keeping
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Dusko
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Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: 2007.12.16(Sun)11:41    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't describe how happy I am to see all you guys and gals responding to this, for me, HUGE ISSUE Very Happy

And I salute you for it !!

Quote:
The main issue is, us fishkeepers are a small minority in this hobby.


You would be surprised how much WE CAN CHANGE Very Happy

Look at Marcos Avila our host, what he achieved here with Aquahobby.com !

He made a huge impact on fish-keeping and started this philosophy of Responsible fish-keeping. Am I right?? ONE MAN first, than followers and than you have a new fish-keeping culture developed Very Happy

We can do a lot, trust me on this one. Yes it does take time.

Tom Barr needed 10 years to convince us all that dosing PO4 is beneficial to keep most of the algae at bay. As well as CO2 when it comes to BBAlgae.
But he did it.

And not just Tom, but also our Steve Hampton helped this hobby becoming more enjoyable.

There are more people to mention but they already know who they are Wink

Even this issue we are discussing now, it will take at least 10-20 years to see the change.
But we shouldn't give up!

Maybe writing petitions to governments can make faster changes.
Local Aquarium organisations certainly can help a lot with this issue, and so on.

Kind regards, Dusko.
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number6
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Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Location: Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: 2007.12.16(Sun)12:34    Post subject: Reply with quote

some info I'd like to see...

wholesale fish- mortality rates, cost per fish, etc.

trans-shipped fish- mortality rates, cost per fish

acclimation procedures and effect on death rates

acclimation procedures as a result of local breeder bringing fish in


I am not entirely against transshipping as it means everyone gets a crack at the good specimens, but I do see a major difference in how many fish seem to survive the trans-shipping.

I wonder if the fish are as harmed as they appear to be though, or perhaps they are "killed" by clueless LFS employees who don't know how the transshipped fish should be handled.

Fish brought in buckets seem to be acclimated better than fish that come in from the trans-shippers and I wonder how some locally bred fish would fare if they were treated as badly as the shipped fish.

Just some general thoughts on what info I'd like to see us begin trying to find.
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Luna
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Joined: 11 May 2007
Location: St. Louis, MO, USA

PostPosted: 2007.12.16(Sun)16:24    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would it be worthwhile to create a new forum here for finding local clubs and breeders? I could definitiely see the benefits, but I'm not sure if it would fit somewhere else. I would think the ads/links forum would cover it but such topics might get more visibility in their own forum. Know what I mean?

Blah, now this whole discussion has me confused about if I want to buy some other "large" fish to replace my gourami. (larger than rasboras.) My tank looks lonely without the big centerpiece, but it's plenty successful without one (not to mention fairly full). My desire says yes, but my conscience says no.
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CAllain
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Joined: 05 Jun 2007
Location: Berkshire, England

PostPosted: 2007.12.17(Mon)6:56    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was just looking through this, and was thinking maybe I should get my new fish from a local breeder... but apart from one betta breeder (who works at my LFS) I don't know of any...

Guess I'll have to look around Laughing
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Cardinal Tetra
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Joined: 16 May 2007

PostPosted: 2007.12.17(Mon)17:11    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do agree with Dusko, we can change this hobby over time.

Another thing to add to number 6's lost:
Taking wild caught fish and bringing them into the fish trade should be controlled, or completely wiped out, at least until we know how to breed them Wink

I think it will be a shame that future generations will not be able to enjoy the same species as we do. On a heavier note, we are also endangering species, which we have no right to do.
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Luna
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Joined: 11 May 2007
Location: St. Louis, MO, USA

PostPosted: 2007.12.17(Mon)20:42    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cardinal Tetra wrote:
Another thing to add to number 6's lost:
Taking wild caught fish and bringing them into the fish trade should be controlled, or completely wiped out, at least until we know how to breed them Wink


In some cases, it's better to keep the wild-caught fish in the trade for the sake of the local environment. With cardinal tetras, the idea is if the fish are no longer caught from the Rio Negro, there will no longer be a reason to protect that area thus allowing logging and similar practices to move in on the river. I'm not going to say this is the truth, but it's what I have read.
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number6
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Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Location: Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: 2007.12.17(Mon)21:44    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is true for the most part Luna... If the people of the area are granted ownership, they tend to self regulate and protect the wild area.

If no ownership is given to the locals, then the opposite can happen... unethical short sighted people will wipe out the area for a quick buck.


For the most part, catching wild fish for the aquarium trade is not the problem for the wild populations.
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DF Bobo
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Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Location: Canada

PostPosted: 2007.12.18(Tue)15:05    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cardinal Tetra wrote:
Taking wild caught fish and bringing them into the fish trade should be controlled, or completely wiped out, at least until we know how to breed them Wink


that's a complicated issue. in addition to what others have stated, we do sometimes need wild caught specimens to widen the captive bred gene pool, otherwise we may have problems with break downs in breeding lines.

also, has anybody here heard of project piaba? it has many aims but it is essentially trying to keep fisherman in the amazon fishing instead of clear cutting the rainforest for farm land. after many years of study, they have determined the cardinal tetra population to be an annually renewable resource. commercial fishing for the aquarium trade has not been found to cause damage to their populations. why this is so is a complicated subject that I don't have space to go into here.

but on the other hand, collections should be monitered so that we do not take more than the earth is capable of replenishing. that's part of the goal of MAC, the marine aquarium council, which helps regulate the collection of fish for the marine hobby.
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Luna
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Joined: 11 May 2007
Location: St. Louis, MO, USA

PostPosted: 2007.12.18(Tue)20:57    Post subject: Reply with quote

Number6 - Yeah... for the most part.

Bobo - Gene pool... excellent point. They transport elephants, pandas, etc. cross-country to keep the gene pool strong at any given zoo, and even then it isn't that great. Also, some species are so difficult to breed in captivity that it isn't commercially viable. (Only one... maybe two farms exist for cardinal tetras, that I know of anyway.)
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number6
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Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Location: Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: 2007.12.19(Wed)11:10    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luna wrote:
Bobo - Gene pool... excellent point. They transport elephants, pandas, etc. cross-country to keep the gene pool strong at any given zoo, and even then it isn't that great.


Actually, it isn't a good point. Up untl about 5 to 10 yrs ago, this was the prevailin wisdom and I'll bet you could even find a post from me saying this was so.

It now strongly appears that this whole idea is a big giant disaster...

outcrossing to wild essentially slaps a bandaid on bad genes... like painting over a crack in the wall... not a good idea.

Even zoos are really re-assesing their whole breeding strategies because this out crossing practice actually increased fertility problems and other negative phenotypes in the long run...

I own wild fish... and F1 fish... and there are NO genetic benefits for using those as breeders that I can tell at all.
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