Aquarium & Tropical Fish Site
Tropical Fish Forums
Aquarium fishkeeping around the world!
 
ChatChat  HelpHelp   Search BoardSearch Board   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups 
 ProfileProfile   Check your private messagesCheck your private messages   Log inLog in   RegisterRegister 
Behind the Curtains of Responsible Fish-Keeping
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
 Forum Index > Aquarium Science  Reply to topic   Post new topic
Author Message
Dusko
Moderators


Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Location: Denmark

PostPosted: 2007.12.14(Fri)3:47    Post subject: Behind the Curtains of Responsible Fish-Keeping Reply with quote

Split form the Original Topic;
http://www.aquahobby.com/board/viewtopic.php?p=306432#306432

Quote:
Stupid fish.


OT;
I have to strongly disagree Wink But yes if someone ,is stupid, than I will blame us. Blame the human factor. Thanks to this trade this disease has been spreading.

I used to order Dwarf Gouramies for my shop from Singapore. And each time I would have dead Gouramies.
I was doing everything possible; quarantine, medicine, green food, frozen food, vitamins, great water parameters, etc..... didn't help.

Thanks to Practical Fish-keeping I have discovered the truth.

Now I am ordering commercially bred Colisa lalia from Check Republic (Europe) and have no loses. They are showing off great coloration and appetite.

Lets not forget to mention Guppys. They are terribly interbred, and keeping them healthy for longer time is almost impossible. Large (aquarium fish) companies breed them non-stop without introducing new "blood". And after doing this for the last 15-20 years of course this would happen.

Aquarium trade and this hobby (meaning us) have to take the responsibility for their (our) wrong actions.
No one can say "but I didn't know". Ignorance is no excuse.

Blaming Zoo Shops is wrong if you ask me.
WHY?

Shops are trying to do one thing only; to satisfy the customer. And what is the customer wants... low prises!!!

And here is the Problem! Money!

Local breeders can't lower their prises as much the BIG companies can, and what happens? Local breeders are slowly dieing out and Mega companies taking over.

The Mega companies can't take that good care for their stock as the Local breeder can.
As well, the Local breeder will specialize for one or two species, companies do everything.

Some Mega companies keep freshwater fish in huge pools connected to the sewers. Tubifex worms develop easily in such pools, offering "FREE" food to the fish. Now, this is called great Business thinking.
Local breeder would never do such things.

Don't get me wrong, I love this hobby. Mankind can learn a lot from this amazing underwater world. But we all should start asking ourselves, who pays the prise for it. We or the fish??

Everything would look much better for the ornamental species if WE would support the LOCAL BREEDERS instead of the MEGA COMPANIES.

Let
_________________


Last edited by Dusko on 2007.12.16(Sun)11:27; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
number6
Moderators


Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Location: Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: 2007.12.14(Fri)8:22    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amen Dusko... I long ago switched to local breeders and away from the cheap imports.

I wish some managers would ride out the minor complaint period from consumers... they go buy cheap Discus or Angelfish, they drop dead in 2 weeks, and the first thing the do ig go buy the higher quality fish the next time around.
_________________
"Just don't look in my fish room honey... it's just better for all of us. "
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nikelodeon79
Regulars


Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Location: Wisconsin, U.S.A.

PostPosted: 2007.12.14(Fri)9:18    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still OT:

In regard to local breeders...

I'm going to try my hand at breeding saulosi and white tops, once I learn more about keeping them correctly and successfully. I seriously doubt any of my LFS will buy from me. Why? For the reasons Dusko stated above. Prices. They want large quantities for mere pennies. It is much, much cheaper to buy a tankful of "mixed african cichlids" than to buy purebreds. "Who cares if the customer comes in and picks a handful of cichlids that will eventually rip each other apart?" Rolling Eyes Customers want a diverse mix of what's "pretty." Maybe if I can advertise properly they'll want my saulosis or white tops.

I also have a serious problem with the fact that I know most of the fish I would sell to a LFS will end up not being cared for properly, and then paying the ultimate price. Sad

The moral of my long (and probably boring) story is: I wish my LFS had people working there like Dusko!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger Yahoo Messenger AIM Address
Dusko
Moderators


Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Location: Denmark

PostPosted: 2007.12.14(Fri)10:56    Post subject: Reply with quote

number6 wrote:
Amen Dusko... I long ago switched to local breeders and away from the cheap imports.


How many think like you Smile I wish more people are like that.

Quote:
I wish some managers would ride out the minor complaint period from consumers...


It is like this;
1. Customers search for lower prises (which is logical, everyone likes his not so easily earned money, but is it ethical, not thinking ahead what this might cause).

2. LFS are competing amongst each other trying to get the prises as low as possible (meaning, Local breeders OUT, Mega companies IN, again logical, everybody has to make for living, but is it ethical).

3. Mega companies sell cheaper if you order 50 fish per bag (again, everyone has to make for living, never ending competition, but who pays for it...the fish...50 in one bag Shocked maybe overstocked ?? )

If I order Betta splendens from South East Asia, it comes in small 8x8 cm bag with 2 parts of ,oxygen and one part water and travel for up to 36 hours. If ordered locally, they get larger bags and time of delivery is much, much shorter Smile

Conclusion!
We customers dictate the condition !!! Always was and always will be like that!! Customer is ALWAYS right!!

And for that reason shops will change and start ordering from local breeders.
But they have to hear OUR VOICE!

nikelodeon79 wrote;
Quote:
I also have a serious problem with the fact that I know most of the fish I would sell to a LFS will end up not being cared for properly, and then paying the ultimate price.


It doesn't work that way my friend Smile Marine aquarist pay more for their live stock and for that reason research a lot, a lot more than ordinary fresh water aquarist, trust me on this. They don't want to pay a lot for a fish that is going to die in a week time.
The same would be if shops would start selling locally bred species. Higher prises make a better fish keeper Wink

It doesn't pass one day without me feeling deep sadness and concern for the fish I look after, for the fish I sell, and (in general) for all ornamental species sold in this aquarium trade (for our sake).

I wish all my customers starting to ask for locally bred fish and refusing to buy fish imported from Mega companies even if this means not having lots of fish species to choose from.
Fish are no toys, they are living creatures that deserve the same right as we do. Right to live without stress!

I started informing my customers (beginners) about Guppies. I say they are far from being a beginner fish, maybe 20 years ago, but not any more.

Instead I advice them to get ,Cherry barbs, Zebra danio, White Cloud Minnow and similar.

Quote:
The moral of my long (and probably boring) story is: I wish my LFS had people working there like Dusko!


Thanks, that means a lot.
I am the example that things can go the better way. When I started working for this LFS not many employees knew what they are saying to customers. Many would sell a Sailfin plecostomus catfish as an algae eating crew for a 12 gallon tank Shocked

A few months ago I started to educate my colleges about fish and plant care. We sit down once/twice a month for 2 hours and talk fish.
Now they are much better in giving advices about how to start a tank (cycling) and maintain it without any fish loss.

I have thought them how to properly care for plants, and we have less and less customers complaining about dead plants or algae problems. More and more come back to talk about CO2 systems now and are willing to upgrade.

We, as individuals can make a huge difference, things don't change by them selves. But to make a cultural difference we have to stand out together!
One man alone can't shout that loud Laughing

I believe that there is hope for this hobby and for all living creatures involved in it. I believe we should and can make it right. Together!

This hobby shouldn't be stressfull, not for us nor for fish.

Kind regards, Dusko.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Cathy G
Advisors


Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Location: Wisconsin

PostPosted: 2007.12.15(Sat)9:19    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent discussion and evaluation Dusko!

Quote:
A few months ago I started to educate my colleges about fish and plant care. We sit down once/twice a month for 2 hours and talk fish.


You are right, education is the key. Most people get into the hobby by buying a tank, throwing an assortment of pretty fish in it and either learning to enjoy and take care of them, or just replacing the dead fish every few months. When they buy the cheapest fish they can find and fish dies, it is just too easy to replace the dead fish and go on.

With education though, with beautiful successful tanks and responsible fish keeping methods being taught by local fish stores, those who just 'throw' in new fish to replace the dead ones can be inspired to become fish keepers not just havers.

My country has a saying 'You get what you pay for'... how true this is. You also offered some hope in changing things.

Quote:
Marine aquarist pay more for their live stock and for that reason research a lot, a lot more than ordinary fresh water aquarist, trust me on this. They don't want to pay a lot for a fish that is going to die in a week time. The same would be if shops would start selling locally bred species. Higher prises make a better fish keeper


I'm glad you said this!

Thanks for your thoughts Dusko, they are really needed. Since we forum users and readers probably represent a tiny fraction of aquarium hobbyists, it is especially incumbent on us to educate ourselves and others.

Cathy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Blair
Moderators


Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Location: West Calder, Scotland

PostPosted: 2007.12.15(Sat)9:54    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buying from local breeders as opposed to mega companies is benificial not only to yourself, but also to the breeder. Obviously if they earn rave reviews by you, you'll probably spread his/her name around your fishkeeping friends, thus helping his/her business. Very Happy

Come on people, boycott these big money making companies and buy from your local breeder, who actually cares about fish. Wink

Blair
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Luna
Regulars


Joined: 11 May 2007
Location: St. Louis, MO, USA

PostPosted: 2007.12.15(Sat)12:55    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing Okay, that stupid fish comment was more about the individual fish and said to be funny... you gotta hear me say it to understand the humor.

But yeah... grrr on fish breeders.

I honestly don't know if there are freshwater breeders in my area. I'm sure there are plenty of large cichlid breeders, but not so sure for small tropicals. Hmm... Well, you definitely got me thinking about it. I am all for buying locally when I can. (Heck, I'm still not into online buying because of the environmental expense of shipping... and the money. Shopping is a whole other story!)
_________________
--Kathy--
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger AIM Address
Cardinal Tetra
Regulars


Joined: 16 May 2007

PostPosted: 2007.12.15(Sat)16:17    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too have switched to local breeders. I find that the fish are naturally much healthier, and have longer lives, plus they have more specialty goods.

I have two LFS's where the managers breed ANY thing they can right at the store, and inbreeding is prevented. I go there all the time, although the chains and some other LFS are cheaper, and closer to where I live.

The main issue is, us fishkeepers are a small minority in this hobby. Most LFS just want to please the masses, which unfourtunatly are causing many avoidable fish casualties, and keeping myths alive(Betta and Goldfish in bowls). I find that there is not much to do...as most people I have tried to help are arrogant and "know what they are doing." But that Is why I feel that we should be here, to help newcomers learn the proper way to care for fish, and become fish-keepers.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DF Bobo
Exemplars


Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Location: Canada

PostPosted: 2007.12.16(Sun)7:34    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cardinal Tetra wrote:
The main issue is, us fishkeepers are a small minority in this hobby.


you're right, that is the biggest issue, because people like us make up a small percentage of the overall customer base. if they did not appeal to the main customer base, they'd be quickly out of business and we'd have no place to buy our stuff. and also, like cathy said, education is another big part of it. the more people that know about and understand this problem, the more that can be done about it. when I get the aquahobby webcomic back up, I'll probably do an edition on this issue to help get the word out.

now another thing, for some of us, it may be difficult to track down breeders. and actually, fish clubs are the best place to get fish as you can get them at auctions or trades and they will have been bred locally. but sometimes, finding a club or even local breeders can be difficult. I think that the 2 main things we need to do is spread the word, and also, build a large, international directory of private breeders and aquarium clubs, as I think that has the potential to be a big help

my thoughs.
_________________
New to fishkeeping? Click the banner

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Heather R
Benefactors


Joined: 04 Feb 2007
Location: NY

PostPosted: 2007.12.16(Sun)10:02    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an excellent discussion Dusko, just the sort of thing we need around here.

I feel that these huge chains are low priced, and that does drive people there to buy whatever they want, but also you are sacrificing quality for the low prices most often.

I have walked the fish sections of these stores, the tanks in terrible condition, most fish do not have the proper sinage telling the public proper adult sizes, but that price is dirt cheap! I have seen fish with ich, flukes, skinny disease, Hole in Head and much more being sold in stores, yet people will comprimise the health and quality of the fish for a cheaper price. It's beyond me why people do this.

I would much rather deal with a local breeder, pay a higher price, and know I am getting quality livestock.
_________________
Now all your loach are belong to us!
"Don't make me use my stuff on ya, baby!"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
 Forum Index > Aquarium Science All times are GMT - 6 Hours Reply to topic   Post new topic
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Jump to:  
  You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2008 phpBB Group

oF <=> oC in <=> cm G <=> L