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my dream indoor pond (video)
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fishy-frenzy
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Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Location: Fort Worth, Texas, U.S.A.

PostPosted: 2007.12.02(Sun)10:19    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, I can't answer the questions you asked, but I have some questions of my own.

Quote:
Koi tend to gang up whenever they think you are going to feed them, and if you only feed them via the upside down tank this will cause them to rush up into there when they see you.


How would you manage to feed them through the upside down aquarium? Confused
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alan
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Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Location: Grand Forks ND USA

PostPosted: 2007.12.02(Sun)10:53    Post subject: Reply with quote

fishy-frenzy wrote:


How would you manage to feed them through the upside down aquarium?

thats easy,
Think of a normal aquarium that you turn on it's side and lower into a Koi pond.
Now keeping this aquarium underwater you turn it so that it's bottom is turned up and is now the glass top.

Now lift this upsidedown aquarium up until about 3/4 of it is sticking out of the pond water.
You will see that the water inside this upside down aquarium stays in position even as you lift it up above the top of the pond water.

Now position the upside down aquarium (still filled with water from the pond) on top of some blocks so that it stays put sticking above the pond.

Now the lower end up the upside down aquarium is still down in the pond so all I need to do is place some floating Koi food in a dip net, lower the dip net into the pond and under the open end of the upside down aquarium and fip the net so that the floating Koi food goes up into the aquarium!

The Koi will learn very fast that the food is given this way and soon the monent the Koi down in the pond see me walk into the room they will all rush up into the upside down aquarium expecting some food.

Now here is the part of my idea that gets interesting...
It's called "Lots Of Big Fish in a Smaller Space" idea...

My idea is that because the Koi are so big, and the upside down aquarium is small, that there will be this mass of colors and movement inside the aquarium as all the Koi rush around bumping into each other watching me walk by.
It should be a great show to watch.
Koi really do climb ontop of each other when feeding.

Yet at any time the fish can dive down if they want, (140g in the lower pond mean plenty of elbow room for everyone!) yet they go up into the aquarium whenever they want to have a look around and see what I'm doing.

For a example of how to feed fish inside an upside down aquarium I found this YouTube video http://youtube.com/watch?v=5InNVJ_Ythc
thats shows at 13 seconds what I'm talking about and has been something I am learning from and getting ideas about doing.
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fishy-frenzy
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Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Location: Fort Worth, Texas, U.S.A.

PostPosted: 2007.12.02(Sun)13:44    Post subject: Reply with quote

Floating food never occured to me before. Wink I have some more questions.
What will the aquariums' dimensions be?
Ponds' dimensions?
Will the aquarium or pond have plants in it? If so, how will you light them, and would there be a substrate in the aquarium?
Sorry I'm asking you the questions, and not answering yours. You have a cool idea that I've never seen or heard of before, and I'm interested in how it works. Smile
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alan
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PostPosted: 2007.12.02(Sun)14:20    Post subject: Reply with quote

fishy-frenzy wrote:

What will the aquariums' dimensions be?
Ponds' dimensions?
Will the aquarium or pond have plants in it?
If so, how will you light them, and would there be a substrate in the aquarium?
Smile


Cool questions!

Now always remember this is still in the "dream stage" of design.
I'm tossing out my ideas here, and looking for some other views to add to my own.
But to keep the conversation going, here are my answers to your questions,,(I think such answers will work)

Q- Aquarium dimensions?
A - I'm thinking of a rather small tank that sticks out of the water of a preFormed 140g-220g pond. I think that a cool size for the upside down tank would be that its about a foot and a half wide, about 6 inches thick, and sticks out of the pond about 2 feet.
I like the idea that it would be like a little "monolith" like in the movie 2001

Q - Ponds' dimensions?
A - I now am sure that I want this indoor pond to be able to move from place to place, thus I need it to be small enough to slide down the stairs in the winter. I want it in my basement in the winter and in the 3 seasons porch in the spring/summer/fall. I have been looking and there is a nice size 160G and a nice 220g pond for sale here and they might be worth looking to get

Q - Will the aquarium or pond have plants in it?
A - I believe that when I have the indoor pond moved into my porch that there will be a few hours of very good sun , enough to have some potted plants in the pond.
The design of many Pre-Formed ponds does have with it a shelf that you can place pots on under the water.( an example of this shelf is found in my little coffee table Koi pond design http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upt2duGT5fY)
Now plants and big Koi are a concern, but why not give it a try?

Q - would there be a substrate in the aquarium?
A - well no, Remember the aquarium is upside down!
This means that there is no bottom to the aquarium, just an airtight top.
The aquarium is fully open at the bottom so that fish can swim up into it and then down again .
The Koi pond will have some substrate however. I know that some light colored gravel always help see the fish in contrast.
I never liked the look of a black bottom Koi Pond.
I want to have some type of underwater lighting in the pond so that I can see what the fish are doing.
I also want a hood over the top of the aquarium to provide a place to hide some lighting there, as well as cover up the airpump I may have glued up inside there.


Last edited by alan on 2007.12.02(Sun)15:26; edited 1 time in total
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fishy-frenzy
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Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Location: Fort Worth, Texas, U.S.A.

PostPosted: 2007.12.02(Sun)14:37    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds good! Looking forward to when it's all done. Great concept by the way.
More questions(as always Very Happy):
How many koi? (I'm not used to thinking so big when it comes to fish)
Will there be any other fish/ invertebrates? I personaly like crayfish, but they might crawl out in a pond situation.
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alan
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PostPosted: 2007.12.02(Sun)15:24    Post subject: Reply with quote

fishy-frenzy wrote:
How many koi?

Will there be any other fish/ invertebrates?

I personaly like crayfish, but they might crawl out in a pond situation.

Thanks for asking more questions!
(this is how I find out if there are any unknowns to my design.)

Q - how many Koi?
A - well, I don't know, whatever seems right for the pond. I have to always keep in mind that from time to time I have to stick all the Koi in my normal Koi aquariums in my basement, ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_VfKGLUxyY ) so I don't want to just add to my fish-space problems with more monster fish.
However I think a few goldfish and perhaps a mix of other fish that can be around a koi would be fun.

A long time ago I learned an important lesson about owning fish that can reproduce....It's a HASSLE!
Many years ago when I first got my 140g aquarium I fell in love with the idea of owning a breading pair of Convict Cichlid .
I talked to a fish store owner and he set me up with a good size male and female Convict.
It was not long after that when I found their nest and soon I had hundreds of little baby convicts in my tank.

It Was Great! ...for about 6 months...

But a 140g tank with only two fish in it is way different than a 140g tank with hundreds of fish in it.
At the worst part was that soon other fry were beginning to bread with each other and hatch eggs.

I made a bunch of runs back to the pet store to give away some of the tons of convicts I now owned, but in the end I was stuck for a long time with this never-ending problem.
I learned that fish breading is best left to the people that understand the true results of such things and not guys like me that just wanted a few cool looking fish.

Q - Invertebrates?
A - no, I don't want to open up a can of trouble that I have no experience with.
(and crayfish are scary in an indoor pond because they like to get out of the water from time to time and have look around. Maybe I'm too old-school, but I want to keep all the pond animals inside the pond...LOL)
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fishy-frenzy
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Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Location: Fort Worth, Texas, U.S.A.

PostPosted: 2007.12.02(Sun)16:33    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The Koi pond will have some substrate however.

If there was substrate under the suspened aquarium, you could have some plants growing underneath the aquarium, and allow them to grow up into the aquarium. I think that would look neat. Maybe (1) bright to very bright light over the aquarium would be sufficient for plant growth?

I was thinking about how the air pump could be used to adjust the water level inside the aquarium. If you pumped the air out of the tank, there would be a vaccum so the water level in the aquarium would rise. If you used another air pump, you could pump air into the aquarium to lower the water level. This might be helpful to get the water level where you want it.

Questions :
If some how the vacuum was lost, and the water spilled out, do you have any safety plans for where all that excess water will go?
How will the tank be held up from the bottom?
What is the shape of the pond(rectangular, oval, ect.)?

Keep us informed what you decide to do! Smile
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alan
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PostPosted: 2007.12.02(Sun)16:53    Post subject: Reply with quote

fishy-frenzy wrote:
If there was substrate under the suspened aquarium, you could have some plants growing underneath the aquarium, and allow them to grow up into the aquarium.
Maybe (1) bright to very bright light over the aquarium would be sufficient for plant growth?
I was thinking about how the air pump could be used to adjust the water level inside the aquarium.
Questions :
If some how the vacuum was lost, and the water spilled out, do you have any safety plans for where all that excess water will go?
How will the tank be held up from the bottom?
What is the shape of the pond(rectangular, oval, ect.)?


Here we go!
The idea of plants that grow from the pond up into the tank is new to me.
I have to think about that.
I do plan to make some type of lid to hide a aquarium light and the hidden air pump so I do think a growlite type lamp is within my design.

As for the idea that a simple change in the position of the airstone will be enough to change the water level of the upside down aquarium?
I don't know yet.

The truth is that I really need to do a full-size test to see if this whole concept of mine can work in real life.
I have done small-scale testing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOhIktKWukY and based on this I 'think" my idea can work.
HOWEVER ...I have also been going over my ideas with a very smart member of this forum via emails and video tests and I have seen clear proof that my ideas will fail once I take it to a full-size test.

There maybe a basic problem I have when I think about my design that I need to address. (I will write more about this in my next posting.)

Q - do you have any safety plans for where all that excess water will go?
A - yes, it will go on the floor.

This is the same answer I have if one of my normal aquariums springs a leak. The excess water goes onto the floor. It's what happens for all of us aquarium owners. We try to make sure that does not happen, but we know there "ALWAYS" is a chance of a leak. thats why a good aquarium owner never has things that can't get wet positioned under the aquarium. (family bible, main house circut breakers, etc)

Q - How will the tank be held up from the bottom?
A - I don't have a clue right now, But even a few building blocks should work.

Q - What is the shape of the pond(rectangular, oval, ect.)?
A - I don't know yet, but I do know that the over-all foot print of the whole pond must fit in the space I have in both my basement and in my porch when it will be positioned.
I guess that means no bigger than about 9 foot by 6 foot.
Any bigger than that and it becomes too hard to take home from the store, or to move into the basement.
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fishy-frenzy
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PostPosted: 2007.12.02(Sun)17:36    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
have also been going over my ideas with a very smart member of this forum via emails and video tests and I have seen clear proof that my ideas will fail once I take it to a full-size test.


Is there any chance I could see a video or could you explain to me how it would fail? In my opinion, and the videos I've seen already, I think it would work, as long as their is constantly a vaccum in the top, that keeps the water at that level.

Quote:
As for the idea that a simple change in the position of the airstone will be enough to change the water level of the upside down aquarium?

I'm going to try to re-explain this concept again: The air pump that is on the inside of the aquarium will pump the air thats in the aquarium out of the aquarium, thereby making a greater vacuum in the top of the tank. This vaccum will pull the water from the pond up, making the water level greater in the aquarium. When the water level is where you want it, simply put the outflow of air back into the aquarium.

Would floating plants be an option for the aquarium, or the pond?

Running out of questions Wink. Keep us informed!
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alan
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PostPosted: 2007.12.02(Sun)18:13    Post subject: Reply with quote

fishy-frenzy wrote:
I'm going to try to re-explain this concept again: The air pump that is on the inside of the aquarium will pump the air thats in the aquarium out of the aquarium, thereby making a greater vacuum in the top of the tank. This vaccum will pull the water from the pond up, making the water level greater in the aquarium. When the water level is where you want it, simply put the outflow of air back into the aquarium.

Yes, this is, er was a very important part of my design as well.
At first I believed that all I needed to do to get the water to go up into the upside down aquarium was to turn on the little air pump I have glued to the top of the tank and move the airstone so that all the bubbles would rise up outside the upside down tank.
I felt that this would cause water to replace the lost air and, Ta-Da!!, the water would climb up into the aquarium.

The problem is.....well....the problem is that a very well respected member of this forum has taken the time to set up a more full size test of my ideas.
He sent me a video of his test and in his test my design failed.....and it failed in such a way as to suggest I have a basic design flaw to my idea.

Here is a simple question I don't know the answer to -
"Does the way I get a zone of trapped air at the top of the aquarium matter?"
Sucking it out or tipping the tank, is there a difference?

I don't know the answer to that question.

You see in my test in the kitchen sink http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jclt8nNOYM4 I showed how I would trap the needed 2 inches of air at the top of the tank.
Basicly I just sink the aquarium in the pond, then turn the tank into position and raise it up .
This seems to me to trap air under normal air pressure.
AND remember it's normal air pressure I need in the trapped zone for my little air pump to work correctly.

ON THE OTHER HAND-
in a test sent to me where the upside down aquairum filled with water to within 2 inches of the top by sucking out all the air at the top (with a high powered air-sucking pump), the result was that there was not enough air pressure left in that top 2 inches for the little air pump to work.

So, does it matter that I just tipped the tank up to trap 2 inches or air, or did it matter that he sucked out the air to within 2 inches?

I don't know.

What I believe is that I 'think" I ended up with enough trapped air to run a pump but until I do a full-size test I can't prove it.
but he did a real full-size test and didn't end up with enough trapped air with the presure high enough to run a little air pump. (and he is a lot smarter than I )
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