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[split] Ammonia/nitrate consumption by plants
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Plantbrain
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Joined: 10 Dec 2003
Location: The swamp

PostPosted: 2007.01.10(Wed)18:49    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plants will translocate Carbon from older leaves to the newer tissue closer to the light/air above to gain the aerial advantage.

Once the plant makes it to the surface, it no longer has a CO2 limited condition, it has plenty of CO2 from the air above.

Low CO2=> holes in the leaves of many plants.

In a non CO2 enriched tank, there's no reason to add more CO2 etc.
the plants will adapt if you give them time to do so and stop doing water changes, which typically add a lot of CO2, the plants does not know if it has high or low CO2 levels in it's environment.

Plants adapt to a stable CO2 level and do well, if you move the CO2 around, they think things are going bad. Algae like that so they bloom when that occurs.

Some water movement is good for non CO2 as CO2 planted tanks.
It6 will maintain a decent level, although low for the non CO2 tank approach.

Note: algae also prefer CO2.

Regards,
Tom Barr
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Dusko
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Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: 2007.01.11(Thu)17:46    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Tom,
this sure was an eye opener.
I wasn't aware that water changes are adding CO2, but rather reducing it from the column (bubbling etc)...well this is clarified now Smile

Sure plants will do better if extra CO2 is added, like we can see in my Amazon Sword case where all leaves started dissipating. Once the CO2 was added everything changed (the second shown photo).

Well, the Hygro polysperma and the Hygro Rosanervig were doing OK without the added CO2, but now sure produce much bigger and stronger leaves.

Just to mention; the Hygro Rosnervig that I have in my 11 gallon RCShrimp tank is growing so beautifully tick. Meaning the leaves are so packed together and much smaller with a very nice pinkish color almost dusty Smile and it grows slowly.

There is no added CO2, water change every week 25%. Lights are bulbs, one is a normal 15W white light the other is the compact florescent 5W.
Of course the distance between the lights and the plants is a very important deal. I believe that it is much easier maintaining smaller non-CO2 tanks than the other way around.

Maybe that is the reason for my Rosanervigs having different leaf shapes.
NOTE; both Hygro Rosanervig are from the same mother plant.

I am planing on dismantling my 180 liter and give it a new start.
I am planing on having a very tick substrate so the plants get closer to the lights, and do not have the need in reaching the surface creating a long leggy plant, but rather bushy.
This time I will clip them very often, to "train" them to stay bushy. Bonsai art Wink
Ground fertiliser from the Belgian "Aquatic Nature" will do good (same as ADA soil).........

But I better start a new thread about this before the original poster smacks me behind the ear Laughing

Regards, Dusko.
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Plantbrain
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Joined: 10 Dec 2003
Location: The swamp

PostPosted: 2007.01.11(Thu)18:24    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, the thread has wondered off the path.

Tap water does have more CO2 generally, it's also colder, mixes in a lot of gas bubbles, the tank typically looks better for that day (lots of CO2), then the next and 2nd day it looks worse, then the 4-6 day, algae appears etc.

I think most are really surprise when they no longer do water changes on anon CO2 method planted tank and the plant growth is better, less/no algae at all.

Less work? Sure!

Few can argue with that, the method is very strong is it's overall appeal really, much better than messing with water changes and test kits.
Plants do great at removing NO3, NH4 and PO4 etc.

Look better than the alternatives as well.

Regards,
Tom Barr
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Marcos Avila
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Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Location: Santo Andre (Brazil)

PostPosted: 2007.01.11(Thu)20:17    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plantbrain wrote:
Yes, the thread has wondered off the path.

I've left the original basic question back in the FW Basics forum and brought this discussion over here, so we don't risk frightening the newbies who may not even have plants in their tanks Wink
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Minsc
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Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Location: Framingham, Mass

PostPosted: 2007.01.11(Thu)23:19    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plantbrain wrote:
Dusko, that is classic CO2 deficiency, that patterning on the leaves of the sword, Gaint Hydro does this as well.


A year, an entire year of adding more K, more traces, more N, switching traces, more Ca, more K again, wondering about minimum light thresholds, wondering about adding additional Mo....

Finally, a definative answer Very Happy
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Plantbrain
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Joined: 10 Dec 2003
Location: The swamp

PostPosted: 2007.01.12(Fri)0:18    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Marcos,


Quote:
A year, an entire year of adding more K, more traces, more N, switching traces, more Ca, more K again, wondering about minimum light thresholds, wondering about adding additional Mo....
Finally, a definative answer


Perhaps............

For my specific case, I was careful to rule out KNO3, KH2PO4, traces, good substrate, fish waste, water changes, stable maintenance routines, good light, GH Ca/Mg before arriving at this.

I'm not saying that other things such as low K+ might not also produce similar traits.........

I am saying for some cases, lower CO2 can do this to plant leaves based on a few observations and it also have an underlying basis for for the notion.

I try and make sure I watch many species for responses also.
I could be wrong, but it seems to point to low CO2.

Poor health of Anubias and Java ferns really seem very well correlated also with similar conditions.

I bumped the CO2 back up and the plants have not had the symptoms since even if the ferts got missed once a week here and there.

The light is high in the tank though, 5-6w/gal on a 350 Gal tank.
So any depression of CO2 is expressed quickly.

There is no algae, a very slightly haze on the glass(Green spot namely, and if you have plenty of PO4 and you have a GSA, it's the CO2), but it's removed each week.

So both the GSA and the plant responses really piont to low CO2, it's not just one plant and one reading/observation, it's been done on purpose to take an otherwise normal well run tank without issues, and perturbign it to see if the cause predicted will show up.

Now if an aquarist can fix something, they ought to be able to go back and preturb it to double check what they saw was likely causation from that isolated perturbutation.

If you can fix it, you can repeat the test again without too much trouble right?

Few aquarist unfortunately ever do this.

If you hassle with test kits and micromanagement for 1-2-3 years, you owe it to yourself to make a working plan to understand and get to the bottom of it.

I spent the longest time figuring out BBA, and I happened on the solution by luck and assuming too little, not too much ironically.

I assumed more CO2 and it was nothing to do with the nutrients, Steve had ruled out NO3 and PO4 at the low end, I recently had found out I have high PO4, and I knew adding fresh tap produced awesome growth for 1-2 days, so I asked what else was in there other than PO4 that would cause the pearling?

CO2.

I added more CO2, I got the same response.
I lowered CO2 again, this time on purpose, I had the same issues again, I raised it back up, the issues went away.

I maintained high CO2, never had BBA again, with the high PO4, never had GSA again.


Good stable CO2(95%) and routine dosing will go a long way to solving 99% of the algae issues.

Want slower growth but still use CO2?
Use less lighting.
Plants will do very good with low light and CO2, that gives you a huge wiggle room, you can dose a number of ways effectively and very low algae.

Plants will look better actually and in many cases redder if you pay attention(good CO2/good spread of light, so use T5's or T8'
s etc for these tanks)

Regards,
Tom Barr

Regards,
Tom Barr














Regards,
Tom Barr
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