Aquarium & Tropical Fish Site
Tropical Fish Forums
Aquarium fishkeeping around the world!
 
ChatChat  HelpHelp   Search BoardSearch Board   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups 
 ProfileProfile   Check your private messagesCheck your private messages   Log inLog in   RegisterRegister 
My mandarin dragonet...
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 Forum Index > Marine Fishes and Corals  This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.   Post new topic
Author Message
FloridaBoy
Moderators


Joined: 04 Jul 2004

PostPosted: 2006.11.29(Wed)16:46    Post subject: Reply with quote

Had to check your post twice..."the mortality rate is just a figure?"

Not looking for a fight here, but this is the mentality that will end up creating bans on ALL wild caught species. My goal here is the same as always; to help aquarists by increasing awareness of all aspects of the hobby, including the problems with delicate species. I have spent many hours of my personal time trying to help everyone here (including YOU as I recall). No one pays me for this. If I were a radical environmentalist, I would probably condemn the entire industry, (many do) but as my many posts will show that is not the case. Honestly, I have a passion for reef fish and the coral reefs of this world and I want to see them remain here for the next generation to enjoy. On one end there are sustainable methods involving hardy species and on the other end there is also irresponsible trade in delicate species that needs to be changed in my opinion.

Right now the sad fact is, many retailers would gladly sell a Mandarin to anyone with an aquarium and I think that needs fixing. Some aquarists need to get their heads out of their tanks once in a while and look at the big picture. If that bothers someone or offends someone, then so be it.

As for me "discouraging you," trust me; there is nothing more discouraging than watching a delicate species waste away in your tank. Please remember that. I am 100 percent in agreement with you on captive bred species; they are worth the extra cost and wonderful for the future of the industry.
By the way, where are you getting captive reared Mandarins these days?
_________________
Keepin' marines happy for 25 years


Last edited by FloridaBoy on 2006.11.29(Wed)22:35; edited 6 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FloridaBoy
Moderators


Joined: 04 Jul 2004

PostPosted: 2006.11.29(Wed)17:37    Post subject: Reply with quote

sunshine84 wrote:
if you buy a mandarin from that retailer, they will have a replacement within days. You said yourself that he doesn't care whether they live or die. So, is he really someone that you'd want to support? In addition, you argue that the mandarin will have a better chance of survival in your tank than the retailers. Maybe. But the mandarin would have a better chance of survival in the ocean, which is where it belongs. The very act of buying this species, will continue to see them stripped from the ocean and sold to unsuspecting people. As I said before, for every person that is successful in keeping them, there will be many more that aren't.

I do not support the sale of this species, which is one of the reasons why I don't have one now. After the death of my psychedelic mandarin, I decided that I would not buy another, unless I was planning to breed them. Otherwise, it is simply supporting the sale of this species and further exacerbating the problem.
Susan


WOW. Sunshine, I find your comments are excellent as usual, thanks for your input. Very Happy
_________________
Keepin' marines happy for 25 years
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dale
Advisors


Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Location: Abbotsford Canada

PostPosted: 2006.11.29(Wed)21:32    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would also step in to defend FB's comments (although he certainly needs no defending) as FB is probably one of the nicest posters on the board and always backs his statements up with facts and extensive experience. I have been in the hobby for 20 years and work in the industry and I always learn from and respect his comments.

As stated previously, most people hope you have success with this species (seeing as you've already got it) but in a strange way your limited success can be a doubled edged sword for the hobby as a whole. If you are only concerned about your experience, keeping a dragonet alive for awhile is a positive but... a rare short term success reported without background cautions only spurs other hobbyists to consider keeping them as well.
The problem in this case is not getting them to eat, it is that they eat themselves out of house and home (something I experienced with a coral banded pipefish). The trick is to train these species to switch over to prepared or frozen nutritious foods. Success doing this (and a description of the methods) would be a service to the hobby as a whole, particularly if it could be repeated consistently. Only then would the promotion of keeping these species be warranted.
If you stick around the board you will see that this type of discussion raises its head ever once and a while and you will also see that FB only wants you, and everyone else, to have a successful experience within the hobby.

I also want to know where the CB Mandarins are? Captive breeding is usually a breakthrough in terms of feeding issues and Mandarins are still WC to the best of my knowledge
_________________
Intelligence is not having all the answers; it's knowing how to think!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
art_of_war
Members


Joined: 17 Nov 2006

PostPosted: 2006.11.30(Thu)0:09    Post subject: Reply with quote

dale,

I'm proud of you for defending his arguement; he clearly has "his point". HOWEVER, I don't live in Florida or near the Red Sea or in Australia or the Phillipines. Come to think of it; there is no such coral reef in my area besides the small one I'm building in my home. Therefore, in order for the rest of the world who share a similar disadvantage to enjoy this beauty without getting his/her feet wet whether it be by scuba diving or snorkeling; the possession of a mandarinfish is not asking for too much nor is it a crime. Besides, it's a mandarinfish...not human stemcells.

I respect his comments; since it is only an opinion.

thanks again.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
art_of_war
Members


Joined: 17 Nov 2006

PostPosted: 2006.11.30(Thu)0:12    Post subject: Reply with quote

FloridaBoy wrote:
Had to check your post twice..."the mortality rate is just a figure?"

Not looking for a fight here, but this is the mentality that will end up creating bans on ALL wild caught species. My goal here is the same as always; to help aquarists by increasing awareness of all aspects of the hobby, including the problems with delicate species. I have spent many hours of my personal time trying to help everyone here (including YOU as I recall). No one pays me for this. If I were a radical environmentalist, I would probably condemn the entire industry, (many do) but as my many posts will show that is not the case. Honestly, I have a passion for reef fish and the coral reefs of this world and I want to see them remain here for the next generation to enjoy. On one end there are sustainable methods involving hardy species and on the other end there is also irresponsible trade in delicate species that needs to be changed in my opinion.

Right now the sad fact is, many retailers would gladly sell a Mandarin to anyone with an aquarium and I think that needs fixing. Some aquarists need to get their heads out of their tanks once in a while and look at the big picture. If that bothers someone or offends someone, then so be it.

As for me "discouraging you," trust me; there is nothing more discouraging than watching a delicate species waste away in your tank. Please remember that. I am 100 percent in agreement with you on captive bred species; they are worth the extra cost and wonderful for the future of the industry.
By the way, where are you getting captive reared Mandarins these days?


FB,

Oh by the way...I used to work for the EPA and therefore I know a great deal about environmental destruction. It's a lost cause.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Osprey
Advisors


Joined: 15 May 2006
Location: Okotoks, AB

PostPosted: 2006.11.30(Thu)8:14    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see what location has to do with it. I live in landlocked Alberta and still wouldn't consider buying a WC mandarin. If I desperately wanted to see one 'live', as opposed to in video or pictures, I would save up for a scuba diving trip. (and anyone who is into salt probably has the means for such a trip... or did before they started keeping SW fish Laughing ). Otherwise, this species may be facing extinction: in the wild AND in our little glass boxes. And then no-one will be able to enjoy them.
On the other hand, being able to find tank-raised mandarins would be a miracle. They'd probably be trained to frozen foods and well worth the extra expense (which I imagine would be considerable). It'd be great to see a source for them.
_________________
Am I obsessed? Wait a minute... don't answer that!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
art_of_war
Members


Joined: 17 Nov 2006

PostPosted: 2006.11.30(Thu)9:43    Post subject: Reply with quote

Opie,

You could probably argue either way on this topic but regardless of how you look at it, it's just a mandarinfish and a mandarinfish at the store (if ignored by any consumer or hobbiest) won't be sent back to the wild from where it came. So, whether its fate be the cause of the retailers or the hobbiest or it being the next meal of any predatory animal (be it sharks, stingrays, anenome, disease, whatever); it is still a fish.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FloridaBoy
Moderators


Joined: 04 Jul 2004

PostPosted: 2006.11.30(Thu)11:38    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's actually not just a fish ...
The Mandarin Dragonet is a wild caught species from a threatened environment, which suffers large losses in the industry. it's not a food fish like a mackerel or sardine. They don't swim in schools of thousands and they are actually pretty sparse in the wild, in fact we were only able to find a few in a rather large area at any given time, and we were with a local dive guide.

Still waiting for your source on captive bred Mandarins... Question
_________________
Keepin' marines happy for 25 years
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sirreal63
Advisors


Joined: 21 Feb 2004
Location: Meadowlakes, TX

PostPosted: 2006.11.30(Thu)12:27    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, it is obvious you care little about the fish you are "having". I am quite sure after this fish dies from starvation you won't be coming back and saying that you were wrong. We do our best to foster the fish "keeping" end of the hobby as opposed to the fish "having" aspect. I suppose you know that your rationale of "it is just a fish" is the same one WalMart and other mass retailers use to justify selling a pair of Oscars to newbies with a new 10 gallon tank and an undergravel filter. After all. it is just a fish, who cares if it dies.

We aren't the nature channel police but we actually care about what goes into our tanks and try to impart that care to others. I suspect that you won't get much more help here as your ways do not fit the premise of this board. You will "have" your fish only until it perishes from starvation. In the meantime we will be trying to help educate people on how to "keep" fish. Some listen and understand, some don't.
_________________
Out on the road today...I saw a DeadHead sticker on a Cadillac...
Jack
110 Gallon DSA Pentagon
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger Yahoo Messenger
dale
Advisors


Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Location: Abbotsford Canada

PostPosted: 2006.11.30(Thu)18:44    Post subject: Reply with quote

AOW.
I was trying to be diplomatic as it is often the case that even experienced hobbyists (myself included) quite honestly make questionable purchases or don't understand the depth of some species care requirements but your last few replies have shown your true colours. I am afraid you will get little sympathy from the regular contributors to this forum with that attitude.

People often use the "all opinions are equal" argument when supporting their position but that is quite an illogical statement when closely examined. If I had a brain tumor and the oncologist said (a) and my postman said (b) I'd probably side with the oncologist. Saying both opinions are equally valid is nonsense. Educated opinions, or those based on experience, are far more valuable than opinions based on whimsy or some theoretical premise.

I don't honestly think you will change your viewpoint but sometimes a thread like this can serve to help and educate others following along silently. There is really little point in debating whether fish deserve basic care and consideration however. If one is not at that point in their thinking this really isn't the community for them.
Just a polite caution: Let's keep it civil or the thread will be locked.
_________________
Intelligence is not having all the answers; it's knowing how to think!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Display posts from previous:   
 Forum Index > Marine Fishes and Corals All times are GMT - 6 Hours This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.   Post new topic
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Jump to:  
  You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2008 phpBB Group

oF <=> oC in <=> cm G <=> L