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Ich becoming worse! What am I doing wrong?
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naclh2ofly
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Joined: 07 Jun 2003
Location: MD's Eastern Shore, USA

PostPosted: 2006.11.21(Tue)19:52    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shai,
API's Super Ick Cure does contain malachite green... see the Tech Sheet.
If I'm not mistaken you need to black out the tank as light will degrade the malachite green???

Fred
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Cathy G
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Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Location: Wisconsin

PostPosted: 2006.11.21(Tue)21:17    Post subject: Reply with quote

Java fern and annubias came through just fine when I did the salt and heat thing. The water wisteria suffered a bit though...

The treatment was maintained for 3 weeks - at 88 with 2 teaspoon salt per gallon. No losses, no return of ich, and it has been 3 months now. I added a bubble wand and another airstone to the tank, as well as lowered the water level to create a bit of splash there too.

Cathy

Ich is in the gravel, on the plants, etc. anywhere the trophont falls. You will need to treat the tank or remove every fish and let the tank go fishless for a month. (Add fish food anywhere to keep bacteria levels up...)
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haname
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Joined: 11 Jun 2003
Location: Phoenix, Arizona USA

PostPosted: 2006.11.21(Tue)23:16    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shai wrote:
I don't live in Florida, I live in Canada. But I suppose it's still possible I could have ended up with that strain somehow.


If the fish that infected your tank came from Florida then it is possible that you have this kind of ich. Did you buy the fish from a local breeder or from a chain store? Usually we don't know where the fish were raised.

Quote:

This was one of the reasons I was reluctant to try it. I have java fern, anubias nana, anubias afzelli, and hydrocotyle verticillata in this tank. The fern is not such a worry because the fern I have in my other tank is sprouting all kinds of baby plants, so I would be able to start over. It would be a shame to lose the adult plants though, plus the others too. Could I plant them temporarily in my 55g without risk of introducing the parasite to that tank?


Yes, you can move the plants. Be careful though and rinse them thoroughly. I'd probably just put them in a separate tub. I don't know about your H. verticillata, but the other plants should be easy to pull out and put back.

Quote:
Before I try salt, do I need to use carbon to remove the meds, or can I just get started now? Should I try salt baths for the remaining fish before adding salt to the tank itself, or do both?


I would remove it just because it isn't helping and I would be concerned about over-stressing the fish with too much at once.

With a bad infestation where you're already losing fish, I would do the concentrated salt baths to clear the parasites from the fish's body ASAP, and treat the tank with the more dilute treatment.

Keep us posted on how it goes.
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~Haname
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haname
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Joined: 11 Jun 2003
Location: Phoenix, Arizona USA

PostPosted: 2006.11.21(Tue)23:24    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shai wrote:
I understand the value in having a quarantine tank, but in this case, I don't really see what difference it would make putting the fish in a new tank...I would end up with double the work, treating fish in one and getting rid of ich in the other. Plus, the new tank wouldn't be cycled. Maybe I'm missing something?


The idea is to treat the fish in a salt bath, then transfer them to a clean tank where they can recover. Meanwhile, the main tank will have ich at various stages of development, ready to infect the fish all over again. Letting the disease run its course in the main tank at high temperature will clear out the ich, since it needs a host within a certain period of time in order to survive. Once all the ich dies and a large water change is performed, the fish can be transferred back to the main tank.

It isn't really double the work because you wouldn't have to do anything with the main tank. It can just sit there. After the 10 days you do a large water change and return the fish. Meanwhile in the hospital tank, you might continue with salt treatment and water changes (or ich meds) to ensure that all ich is cleared from the fish.

unissuh wrote:
I'm not sure about salt baths (never used them for ich), I don't think ich trophozoites are affected by salt baths, are they? I know velvet parasites usually fall off in a salt bath.


It has worked very well for many who have tried it. The only concern is the fish's tolerance for salt, so you have to watch carefully, add the salt solution slowly, and remove it from the salt bath immediately if it shows too much stress.
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~Haname
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Shai
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Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Location: Calgary, AB

PostPosted: 2006.11.22(Wed)0:27    Post subject: Reply with quote

As of now I have one cherry barb left but I doubt he'll last the night. : ( My next opportunity to get salt of any kind and carbon is tomorrow after work.

haname wrote:
Did you buy the fish from a local breeder or from a chain store?

Neither. They came from an LFS here in Calgary called Riverfront, which is just a local store owned by a local guy. It's supposedly the largest LFS in western Canada and has a good reputation. They have about 335 tanks in-store. They regularly get stock in, but I don't know from where. When the cherries developed ich I let them know, but their own stock appears to be clean.

haname wrote:
I'd probably just put them in a separate tub.

This sounds like a good idea. My next question is what to do about the shrimp...removing the plants means removing their cover. I don't need my betta snacking on the shrimp!

haname wrote:
The idea is to treat the fish in a salt bath, then transfer them to a clean tank where they can recover. Meanwhile, the main tank will have ich at various stages of development, ready to infect the fish all over again. Letting the disease run its course in the main tank at high temperature will clear out the ich, since it needs a host within a certain period of time in order to survive. Once all the ich dies and a large water change is performed, the fish can be transferred back to the main tank.

Aha! This makes better sense. Thanks for the explanation!

Cathy G wrote:
You will need to treat the tank or remove every fish and let the tank go fishless for a month.

Even if I only end up with the betta by tomorrow there is no way I can keep it outside the 10g for a month. My house stays too cold at this time of year, I wouldn't be able to even use a betta bowl. So I guess I have to continue treating the tank and hope the betta pulls through. He hasn't actually shown any parasites on his body like the cherries did, so I've assumed they've only been in his gills. I'm not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing.

Well, this has been an incredibly disappointing day. I feel like a terrible fishkeeper. RIP cherries. I'm going to bed. : (
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Cathy G
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Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Location: Wisconsin

PostPosted: 2006.11.22(Wed)7:31    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you put another floating container in the 10g? You'd have to keep the water changed for the betta, obviously you wouldn't put in your tank's water. But, if you have some change water, float the betta in a plastic tub, he'd be warm. Every night, dump out some of his water and replace with the new stuff. Just an idea - I'd hate to keep a betta out of a heated tank here too.
Cathy
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Shai
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Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Location: Calgary, AB

PostPosted: 2006.11.22(Wed)9:16    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cathy, that's a great idea! I have some tupperware that could do the trick...the hard part would be getting it so that the tub doesn't tip, contaminating the water. Maybe I can duct tape it!
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naclh2ofly
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Joined: 07 Jun 2003
Location: MD's Eastern Shore, USA

PostPosted: 2006.11.22(Wed)9:18    Post subject: Reply with quote

For future use...
Salt as a Parasiticide
This may not do much for encysted parasites such as Ich or internal parasites, see Salt dips and salt baths.

I imagine many people lack the "nerve" to watch their fish roll belly up and may shorten the time of the dip/bath to the benefit of the parasites??? This BTW is mere speculation on my part...

Fred
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Cathy G
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Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Location: Wisconsin

PostPosted: 2006.11.22(Wed)12:11    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an excellent excellent article - I'll need to bookmark it and remember it for future use! naclh2ofly - Thanks!
Cathy
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NancyD
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Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Location: Massachusetts, US

PostPosted: 2006.11.22(Wed)17:06    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yesterday on your other post you said you were not treating with anything other than very high heat, so you've only been doing the malachite for 2 days? It takes longer than that to see any improvement. I suggest you gravel vac before each new malachite treatment to help remove as many cysts from the gravel as possible. I don't think you realized how bad delaying effective treatment can be. I'm sorry this has turned into a worse situation.
Nancy
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