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ick and copper treatment.
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Justin Kashammer
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Joined: 06 Nov 2005
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: 2006.08.17(Thu)19:46    Post subject: ick and copper treatment. Reply with quote

I'm wondering if a copper treatment will sucessfully treat the ick in the tank, but concerned about it destroying the live rock. I have around 200 pounds of it, and I just don't want too loose around a thousand dollars on rock. I don't have the room for a q-tank and don't have any inverts.

Thanks for a reply.

Justin
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FloridaBoy
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Joined: 04 Jul 2004

PostPosted: 2006.08.17(Thu)20:15    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, well if you have 200 lbs of live rock you have inverts my friend.
The inverts are on and in the live rock, that's what makes it "alive."
Copper will indeed destroy your live rock or at the very least damage it.
What is your livestock, can you move the fish to a friends QT or perhaps a treatment tank at your LFS for a month while your display runs fallow?
This way you can starve the parasites without treating with copper, but ALL FISH must be removed for at least 3-4 weeks.

Sorry to say, but regardless of what others may tell you, a QT is essential to your long term success in this hobby.
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sirreal63
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Joined: 21 Feb 2004
Location: Meadowlakes, TX

PostPosted: 2006.08.17(Thu)21:00    Post subject: Reply with quote

agreed...move the fish to a dedicated QT.
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Justin Kashammer
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Joined: 06 Nov 2005
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: 2006.08.17(Thu)21:48    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have full grown bi-color angel, a yellow tang, and 7 damsels. I think I could go out and buy a two 20 gallons as qt tanks and put them somewhere in the house. The hard part is that catching the damsels, they are very quick and hide in the rock. Will the ick retain in the tank on the inverts? Just a question. Also treat the qt tanks with copper and wait about a month?

Thanks

Justin
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FloridaBoy
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Joined: 04 Jul 2004

PostPosted: 2006.08.19(Sat)17:52    Post subject: Reply with quote

The cryptocaryon parasites will simply starve on their own without a fish host in 3-4 weeks. Inverts can be left in the display.
You can catch the fish using clear plastic bags or plastic containers baited with food, this takes patience but can be done. Copper and/or proper freshwater dips are effective in the treatment of ich, please research this using your search tool or follow these links at the bottom for more opinions and do not hesitate as this will only get worse and crypto will kill every last fish if ignored. More info below from my archives:

_____________________________________________________________

FloridaBoy Marine Ich 1

What type of system do you have (reef, FOWLR, FO)?
Temp/salinity changes and feeding the fish (?) won't kill the cryptocaryon. Many have tried various psuedo cures for these pathogens, with various results, usually it subsides for a while only to return with a vengeance worse than before; the trophonts/protomonts grow in a cycle, dropping into the substrate and then re-emerging in higher numbers. This cycle confuses a lot of hobbyists, who think they have solved the problem, but the tale of woe is long for this industry-wide problem, and you need copper or starvation to be sure... that's right garlic lovers I said copper.
If you have marine ich in a fish only system and no quarantine tank, you can treat the main tank with copper just follow the directions and make a 20 percent water change in advance. It's better not to treat the main tank if possible, but if you have no q-tank it's better than watching your fish get eaten alive, and believe me, ich will kill every one of them. If you have live rock or other invertebrates it gets more tricky; the copper will kill the inverts, so you need to move ALL the fish to a quarantine system and treat them there for 30 days. Lowering the specific gravity (salinity) to 1.018 will help. This is the preferred method. While you are doing this, the trophonts in the display tank will starve. You can leave hermits, shrimp, stars etc. in the display, but you need a biofilter in the q-tank during treatment and monitor daily for ammonia. For some larger fish systems with large fish, moving them all may be impractical, so you will need to plan accordingly and decide whether QT or treating the main fish display is a better COA.
Also, be advised some species (I. e. eels, puffers, moorish idols, etc.) are harmed by copper treatments so research your charges.
________________________________________________________________

FloridaBoy Marine Ich 2

Well, it's hard to say why, but too late for the clownfish so let's focus on the others... be advised, if it was ich you saw, you STILL have a cryptocaryon problem.
What type of system do you have (reef, FOWLR, FO)?

There is often a temptation to ignore this, thinking the others will not be attacked. However in the small confines of an aquarium 24 hours can make a huge difference with marine ich. Usually it subsides for a while only to return with a vengeance worse than before; the trophonts/protomonts grow in a cycle, dropping into the substrate and then re-emerging in higher numbers. The FW dip was a good idea (providing you checked temp/pH) but that will do nothing to kill the hundreds of parasites lurking in your substrate. If you have marine ich in a fish ONLY system and no quarantine tank, you can treat the main tank with copper just follow the directions and make a 20 percent water change in advance. It's better not to treat the main tank if possible, but if you have no q-tank it's better than watching your fish get eaten alive, and believe me, ich will kill every one of them.

If you have live rock or other invertebrates it gets more tricky; the copper will kill the inverts, so you need to move ALL the fish to a quarantine system and treat them there for 30 days. Lowering the specific gravity (salinity) to 1.018 will help. This is the preferred method. While you are doing this, the trophonts in the display tank will starve. You can leave hermits, shrimp, stars etc. in the display, but you need a biofilter in the q-tank during treatment and monitor daily for ammonia.

Also, be advised some species (I. e. eels, puffers, moorish idols, etc.) are harmed by copper treatments so research your charges.
________________________________________________________________

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/QuarMarFishes.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_3/cav3i4/quarantine/Quarantine.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quaranti.htm
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Mat167
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Joined: 21 Jun 2006

PostPosted: 2006.10.21(Sat)17:11    Post subject: Reply with quote

what about a uv? I've just started my first marine aquarium and havent got a qt yet (don't freak on me I don't have fish yet) and one of the guys I work with has a 90g reef, and instead of using a qt he turns on his uv filter for four hours after adding a new fish. in your opinions, is this a wise approach?
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FloridaBoy
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Joined: 04 Jul 2004

PostPosted: 2006.10.22(Sun)15:07    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mat167 wrote:
what about a uv?

A gizmo you don't need for success.

Mat167 wrote:
I've just started my first marine aquarium and havent got a qt yet (don't freak on me I don't have fish yet) and one of the guys I work with has a 90g reef, and instead of using a qt he turns on his uv filter for four hours after adding a new fish. in your opinions, is this a wise approach?

Not freaking on you, but your friend is playing Russian Roulette and will eventually lose. UV has good and bad points; but cannot ever be considered a reliable substitute for proper quarantine my friend. Here are more opinions for you:

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/uvyesno.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/uvinstallfaqs.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/AqBizSubWebIndex/bizuvs.htm
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McP
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Joined: 24 Jul 2004

PostPosted: 2006.10.22(Sun)16:26    Post subject: Reply with quote

Florida Boy: Is hyposalinity a possibile treatment for ich? I can't find the article I had read but I could swear that this was a possible recommendation instead of copper. If that is total crazy talk never mind I said anything Wink
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FloridaBoy
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Joined: 04 Jul 2004

PostPosted: 2006.10.22(Sun)20:44    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not crazy at all my friend; as I posted above, lowering the specific gravity (salinity) to 1.018 will help. Some have fought it this way with reported success, indeed properly handled fresh water dips are a radical form of just that, and they have saved many a fish I can tell you. There is also some evidence to support the idea of garlic helping "to a degree" in some cases. But, if you have a full blown outbreak of crypto, IMO you need starvation (running a fallow or fishless tank for 3-4 weeks) or copper to kill all the pesky parasites. 24-48 hours can make a huge difference in success or failure. As millions of expensive, dead fish will testify; you simply cannot screw around with it.
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McP
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Joined: 24 Jul 2004

PostPosted: 2006.10.23(Mon)2:00    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure how I missed reading that...twice Embarassed

So if there are no corals in this FOWLR then you are recommending removing the fish to QT and if possible(depending on species) treating with copper and/or reducing sg.

Leaving the display without hosts for the ich for 3 or 4 weeks is then enough time for the parasite to go through a full life cycle and thereby die off?

I'm still planning on getting into the salty side of the hobby now so this is just still research for me but I'm sure that the original poster appreciates the advise Smile
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