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Salmonella (& other nasties) in fishtanks
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Darkblade48
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Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Location: Yokohama, Japan

PostPosted: 2010.01.19(Tue)10:37    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fern wrote:
OK, I didn't know it was a different strain, I have been exposed to human TB and have the antibody's so I never worried much about the fish version.

You must have fun trying to explain your situation when you go for a TB skin test and they demand a chest x-ray after seeing a positive Mantoux test Smile
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Anthony
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unissuh
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Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: 2010.01.19(Tue)16:36    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would think that positive tests are quite common, I don't know about the rest of the world but quite a few countries in Asia has mandatory BCG (TB strain) vaccination. I would test positive. Laughing
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Cliff Mayes
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Joined: 11 Mar 2007
Location: Western NY

PostPosted: 2010.01.19(Tue)21:47    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is strange that my family just had ths conversation last night. TB is, in the US, not a problem but is stiil a serious threat in various parts of the World so while TB may not be thought of in the US milieu it is a consideration to many people in the rest of the World. I read about TB in the Walstad book but have not considered TB in my tanks, but I sure will now. Thank you.
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katienaha
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Joined: 18 Dec 2009
Location: British Columbia, Canada

PostPosted: 2010.01.19(Tue)22:15    Post subject: Reply with quote

...but it is a problem, it's just not as 'widespread'. I am in northern because, Canada, and I had a client of mine in hospital under airborne isolation protocols, because of suspected TB. This client had gone home for christmas and returned very ill. This client's home is a remote native reservation, even farther north, and there have been TB scares in those area reserves in the past.

I had a classmate 2 years ago who tested positive as a carrier during our mandatory skin tests.

It is everywhere, we just can't see it Wink
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unissuh
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Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: 2010.01.19(Tue)22:19    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was just reading the thread again and noticed this...

Fern wrote:
OK, I didn't know it was a different strain, I have been exposed to human TB and have the antibody's so I never worried much about the fish version.


There is some suggestion that TB vaccinations can be cross-protective against M. marinum, but the BCG is a pretty crap vaccine anyway (off memory some studies have quoted as low as 18% of people are protected after vaccination Rolling Eyes). If you mean exposure to TB as in infected with it before, as far as I know previous infection doesn't stop re-infection either. So yes, probably better to be safe when dealing with any Mycobacterium.

PS: Just to be pedantic, immunity isn't due to antibody. White blood cells have to 'consume' and kill bacteria by making toxic compounds.
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Cliff Mayes
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Joined: 11 Mar 2007
Location: Western NY

PostPosted: 2010.01.19(Tue)22:49    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not mind pedantry if I learn something. This is a facinating dialogue. Thank you, thank you, thank you all!

I told my Brother many years ago that I did not get colds and he said it was because I washed my hands. His Daughter and I were at a function and she was yaking about telling her students to wash their hands and I finally, confused, asked if she was teaching Health. She said "no," she was teaching some sort of Social Studies or History Course. I remarked that the kids probably thought she was a goof and asked why she was bugging them about washing hands and she said it was for self preservation.

A good lesson and it added to the reason why I wash my hands after fooling with my tanks.
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wirehair
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Darkblade48
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Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Location: Yokohama, Japan

PostPosted: 2010.01.20(Wed)0:05    Post subject: Reply with quote

unissuh wrote:
PS: Just to be pedantic, immunity isn't due to antibody. White blood cells have to 'consume' and kill bacteria by making toxic compounds.

Not exactly true, but not exactly wrong either.

Antibodies (strictly speaking) are not responsible for long term immunity, but can provide short term immunity (I.e. injecting the blood of an immune individual into a non-immune individual will confer temporary immunity to some xyz disease).

Long term immunity can be brought about by either memory B or memory T cells.

In addition, while immunity is conferred by these types of cells, they do not necessarily have to consume and/or kill the bacteria to "record" down the type of pathogen that is involved (antigen presentation can occur from specialized antigen presenting cells, but also from normal cells in the human body).

If anyone wants me to get into the nitty-gritty details (I'm a microbiologist/immunologist, but specialized in microbiology), feel free to shoot me a PM Very Happy
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unissuh
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Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: 2010.01.20(Wed)0:55    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, I guess the way I phrased that sentence was a bit ambigious.

What I meant when I said that was immunity to Mycobacterium in particular, the exact mechanism of immunity varies so much between pathogens it's really hard to generalize. As far as I know, immunity to TB is mainly Th1/macrophage mediated (for everyone else, T cells secrete messengers to make other white blood cells 'angry' and thus 'consume' and break down foreign objects better) - most vaccines are targeted at getting a nice big T helper/cell-mediated response. Most of the antibody therapies for TB that I've read about, either passive (I.e. transfusing antibody into a patient) or active (making the patient produce antibody), have been unspectacular at best. There've been a few infection studies in animals that lack B cells/antibody too (e.g. heres the first one that came up) and again, no difference in infection.

Nice to know theres someone else in the same broad field that can pick up on my mistakes though (please do if I'm wrong!), Mycobacterium isn't really my area of specialization. I did think you were in the health sciences field - saw what I thought was a Gibco/Invitrogen media bottle used for fertilizer in one of your pictures. Laughing
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Fern
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Joined: 26 May 2009
Location: SW Florida

PostPosted: 2010.01.20(Wed)9:35    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was exposed back when I was 6 but never truly 'caught' it. I think I went through 3 different med regiments for it while I was in school.... When public schools tried to make me do it a 4th time I told them to pound sand Laughing and showed them my records. I'm 27 now and still test positive with the skin test. So do yall think I need to be wary of the fish version?

What other things can we catch from our fish?
This is a very informative thread!
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Darkblade48
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Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Location: Yokohama, Japan

PostPosted: 2010.01.20(Wed)12:40    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are still testing positive on the standard Mantoux test, then it just means you have been (at some point in time) exposed to Mycobacterium tuberculosis, and means you have (some amount) of immunity.

Regardless, I don't think you will get M. marinum unless you are actively trying to catch it. However, I still would not recommend placing your hands into a tank if you have open cuts/wounds on your hands.
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