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sexing blue ram, help!! (with photos)
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namek
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Joined: 13 Nov 2005

PostPosted: 2005.11.13(Sun)21:17    Post subject: sexing blue ram, help!! (with photos) Reply with quote

hello,
I have what I believe to be a couple of german blue ram, but since they are in the tank(+/- 2 months now), one keeps chansing the other, noting too serious but every time he sees her(him?) e chases her(him?). can you help me sex these guys. if they were two males shound't there be a fight?
if they indeed are a couple, is this situacion common? will he ever accept the female?
sory for so many questinos and my bad english. Razz
thanks

rami nr1...



again...



rami nr2...



again...



both, nr2 on top...



both again,nr2 on top...

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2la
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Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Location: St. Paul, MN

PostPosted: 2005.11.13(Sun)21:36    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both males. Nice looking specimens, too!
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Z Man
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Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Western New York

PostPosted: 2005.11.13(Sun)23:22    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know for sure but I'm saying both females.
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2la
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Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Location: St. Paul, MN

PostPosted: 2005.11.14(Mon)0:56    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's rare that I'll ever disagree with Z Man, but I'm doing it here. Wink There's almost nothing to suggest that either fish is a female, except perhaps the more rounded body shape of the fish in the third picture. More likely it represents a male from a different line of rams that is more stoutly built than the other. The large anal and posterior dorsal fins also strongly suggest that these are both males.
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Marcos Avila
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Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Location: Santo Andre (Brazil)

PostPosted: 2005.11.14(Mon)1:19    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's possible that they're just not mature enough yet to tell the difference easily. If they're males, then where are the extended first few rays on the dorsal fin? If they're females, then where is the plump, pinkish belly? I guess time will tell...

As for the chasing, that's absolutely normal. Since there are only two of them, there has to be a dominant one and a submissive one, regardless of their sexes. Actual fights would only ensue if the submissive one decides to challenge the dominant one, otherwise it's just your basic "reminder" chase by the latter so the submissive one doesn't forget who's in charge.
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2la
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Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Location: St. Paul, MN

PostPosted: 2005.11.14(Mon)2:13    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rams are sexable at one inch (2.5cm) SL. I don't pull rank often, but I'm very confident in my abilities to spot male and female rams from across the room. And these aren't females.

If you search for "ramirezi" on Google images, you won't find a single image of a female whose anal fin, when imagined to lay flat against the body, will reach past the caudal peduncle-fin junction. The pictures above clearly show that they would easily reach past that junction in these two specimens. Male rams in general have larger fins overall in relation to body size, just as these two do.

Anterior dorsal spines are inconsistent findings on male rams, especially nowadays with all the inbred lines of fish originating from everywhere except native South American waters. In fact, even wild males don't manifest these until they're older much older themselves, and domestic male rams may not manifest them at all.

The other telltale characteristic here is the uniform 'smudged' irridescent spots all over the body--including the (faded) lateral body spot. Females have very distinct, intensely irridescent, punctate blue spots that overly the body spot--and in fact they become even more obvious when the usually dark spot has faded (e.g., when the fish is sleeping).

I don't mean to be pushy with my assertions here, but given that others seem less inclined to state their own confidence in sexing these fish much less provide objective characteristics to suggest that either of these fish are female, I feel I have to state my case in the hopes that namek and others don't become more confused by the exercise than they should be. With lots of practice, sexing rams can become second nature, and perhaps I've spent one too many hours standing in front of a dealer's ram tank searching for pairs.

Now Bolivian rams, on the other hand... Confused
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scottsws
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Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Location: Virginia, USA

PostPosted: 2005.11.14(Mon)4:05    Post subject: Reply with quote

2la/Marcos/Z Man,

As a member of this board, I appreciate all your professional comments towards each other. You and others make visiting this site very rewarding. I hope to get a pair of blue rams in about a month and will bookmark this topic for future reference.

Since the original poster has two males (we can only guess that he wanted a pair), is this going to be a problem for him, since males are territorial? Would it be a problem if both were females?

I've asked at several LFS. Most salespeople admit they can't sex the rams (when they have them). Getting a pair then will be somewhat of a crapshoot, with the odds slightly better than even, thanks to this topic.

Scott
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namek
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Joined: 13 Nov 2005

PostPosted: 2005.11.14(Mon)5:03    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marcos Avila wrote:
It's possible that they're just not mature enough yet to tell the difference easily. If they're males, then where are the extended first few rays on the dorsal fin? If they're females, then where is the plump, pinkish belly? I guess time will tell...


yes, I believe that these are young specimans, these pictures are 3weeks old and I notice now that the ram in the first and second pic has extended the first 3 rays on the dorsal fin, but the other one not even the first ray has grown, they are all the same size.

one more question...
they live in a 21g tank, what shoud I do? buy 2 (or more) females or trade one male for a female (or two)?
thanks for all tour replys
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Z Man
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Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Western New York

PostPosted: 2005.11.14(Mon)12:06    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fun, huh? It is very difficult to tell from these photos. I don't ever go by dorsal fin extensions as I have had some females with very long extensions. Pink bellies only show usually on breeding females. As stated, I can't be positive but I'm going with the bright blue spangled dots that cover the entire sides of both. We can't even see a black lateral spot clearly on either fish except for photo #1. My personal rule: Blue spangles in black spot = female; no spangles in spot = male. Only time will tell if one or the other lays eggs. Blue Rams are usually easily sexable at 1" that way. Good luck whatever they are.
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Sleeve
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Joined: 30 Dec 2004

PostPosted: 2005.11.15(Tue)16:21    Post subject: Reply with quote

Females have blue irradescent specks mixed in their black spot at the front-base of their dorsal fin and males do not. It's that simple....these are females....

**EDIT**

Males seem to have a more pronounced black spot when compared to females . IMO they are the easiest to sex becuase of the spot rule...
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